How good was the soviet air force? (1 Viewer)

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 2024-12-17T11:25:47-0500

tomo pauk said:
This thread is turning into 90% politics. Meh.

As long as it remains within a WW2 historical context its ok.

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T11:32:13-0500

SaparotRob said:
What's your favorite airplane? Mine is the B-17, all variants.

Wright's Flyer B. But why here?
+ My points are: prehistory of aviation and astronautics, aviapioneers before and during the Great War (technology, reco and bombing without aces), innovations of the 1920s in the US, France, UK, USSR aviation near 1941, turbo-jet and supersonic pioneers, XX century wars. I want to learn more about the history of French aviation.

tomo pauk · 2024-12-17T11:35:01-0500

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
As long as it remains within a WW2 historical context its ok.

Okay.

SaparotRob · 2024-12-17T12:08:22-0500

Ernest (Russia) said:
Wright's Flyer B. But why here?
+ My points are: prehistory of aviation and astronautics, aviapioneers before and during the Great War (technology, reco and bombing without aces), innovations of the 1920s in the US, France, UK, USSR aviation near 1941, turbo-jet and supersonic pioneers, XX century wars. I want to learn more about the history of French aviation.

You asked for a tough aviation question.

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T12:09:19-0500

SaparotRob said:
You asked for a tough aviation question.

About the subject.

SaparotRob · 2024-12-17T12:10:00-0500

That's as tough as I get.

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T12:48:37-0500

On this topic, a self ad break. This is an article that I wrote about a General Aviadesigner (in the USSR, this is a very high), I have been searching for his portrait for a couple of years. Aviation experts don't usually know that the pre- and post-war Pashinin - successor of Lavochkin - are one person, and that he is General. He was also an official spy in the UK and a participant in the well-known kidnap of the Derwent and Nene.
Look at the tables. I inserted out of hooligan motives. Post-Soviet aviation historians usually don't rely on these data, some give them without analysis or conclusions. Also, let's take a look at the locations of new aircraft factories, since geography in the USSR is not clear to you. In my opinion, these lists are indicative in context.
Defects: (1) I wrote the article in bad difficult Russian. (2) It is very difficult to provide photos for a wikipedia. Wiki-supervisor from the USA seriously demanded that I provide permission to a photographer from the Cheka, who photographed the colonel during the war for personal file. Such are the cruel mores, if anyone does not know. (3) The article should be neutral writing about the mass sacrifices of my immediate grandparents. I've learned.
Google helps us.
ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Пашинин,_Михаил_Михайлович

Snautzer01 · 2024-12-17T13:33:22-0500

Ernest (Russia) said:
I can offer a comparison of the quality that was made by the experts of the USSR at that time. In 1946, almost all fighters were scrapped. You will not find traces of tens of thousands of aircraft in the post-war world. In 1947, the USSR continued production after a pause to review their designs and technology. The famous La-7, for example, was immediately replaced by La-9. Yak-9 became known as Yak-9U. Read about it. But foreign fighters remained in service until 1953. The USSR produced many MiG-15s, but kept the P-63 at advanced airfields.

Maybe the pre-war production is high-quality? There were also records. But again, tens of thousands of aircraft had already disappeared in the summer of 1941, after two months of war. Isn't it interesting where? There were more planes than in the whole world at once. Including the USA and Japan. In August, the first British combat aircraft arrived in the USSR (Barbarossa - July). Let me remind you that the British had fought off LW by that time, and soon they would launch an air offensive to Germany in the spring of 1942, when the record holders from the USSR would concentrate so as not to run away.
Find an opinion that not the best Lend-Lease aircraft in the West are worse than the Soviet ones by quality. I know that Stalin personally said that the Hurricane was not suitable in 1942... And he demanded more Hurricanes to 1944.

And then it would be good to have statistics with a single measurement methodology. Right? You were asked to look for the good among the bad, you demand statistics. Look for the good ones.
The USA, UK, Germany, Japan did not stoop to replacing one kind of tree with another worse and without drying. They did not consider it possible to produce airplanes without radio sets, etc. Before statistical, it is worth conducting at least some kind of qualitative analysis.
Until then, you have an opinion not based in mathematical probability. That opinion might be right or might be wrong, but it is hardly a representative valid quality opinion.

So ask about the facts, and don't repeat your opinion. I'm asking you, I'm giving you new arguments. Repetition is well for propaganda.

1. Another country participated in the Great War. The Communists thoroughly destroyed, first of all, its culture. Sikorsky is notable in tsarist Russia, he became a great US engineer. However, the USA, UK, and France are full of the greatest.
2. Records are not an criteria. Italy and France have a lot of records back then. And?
The USSR started a war with the largest air forces in the world. In 5 months, he lost the entire army and most of the country's population. He lost the pre-war AF completely.
3. Korea and Vietnam, Sputnik and Gagarin later. And he didn't show anything good in the air war. Actually, after Korea, it was decided that the Soviet AF should not dominate the air. Because they never dominated, no matter how.
4. We know that the USSR occupied advanced Eastern Europe and part of Germany. I can argue about the cosmonautics of the USSR in detail, but not here. If you want, I can describe my opinion in three long sentences. It is rare, I warn you. But I will not defend it.
In the USSR, engineers recognized Western technology and quality back then. My father is a Soviet rocket engineer, graduated from Voenmekh in the early 1950s. His opinion is more important than yours, not only for me. Something is wrong with your criteria and methods. Your conclusions do not agree with the facts.
5. In particular, the USSR is not the winner in the war, but the people are the victim. Like the China did not win either, but participated on the side of the winners. From here I can start discussing the quality of Soviet factories, which I have studied for a long time.
My hobby: the urgent fighter program in the USSR 1940-1941. About records: the number of projects for SINGLE-seat fighters alone that year is a 27 very different projects have been started! But only 5 of them are usually discussed: MiG-3, Yak-1, LaGG-3, I-180, and 185. More than 27 possible. Stalin personally supervised this mess. This is the year when, say, Typhoon, Mustang, Corsair flew.

I gues i know why most of war time and close post time were scrapped.
How many ton of high grade air industry worth grade alloyes went to soviet union beyond 1945?
And how many ton did they make themselves? In war....
Yes the came up short by quite a margin.
Lend lease stopped.

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T14:00:16-0500

Some observations about the aircraft rockets mentioned here:
1. I think it is obvious that nations can not overwork themselves with weapons until there is a war. After the WW2, this norm was perversed. We just have to get back to normal in this part.
2. Bazooka was based on Goddard's research for the U.S. Army in 1918. Goddard also determine the modern balance configure of rockets. Only for note.
3. Soviet missiles were successfully used BEFORE the War against Japan. In 1941 little is known about their successes. In 1942 they were exhausted. Powder factories in Ukraine.
4. The production of ballistite was ordered in the USA, torn between the desire to receive it and the unwillingness to give up the secret, as they write in the USA. Thus, the use of aviation rockets by the USA and USSR was synchronised. British RP were used.
5. After the war, a miracle: ALL countries adopted rockets, descendants of the German R4M Orkan! Even the famous Grad or, say, Sidewinder. RS, RP, M8 did not leave offspring. Der Wunderwaffe, not Me 262 and V-2. It's a little late.
6. In Russia, Stalinists are sure that the bad grouping shot of Katyushas is brilliant. I'm serious.

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T14:17:54-0500

Snautzer01 said:
I gues i know why most of war time and close post time were scrapped.
How many ton of high grade air industry worth grade alloyes went to soviet union beyond 1945?
And how many ton did they make themselves? In war....
Yes the came up short by quite a margin.
Lend lease stopped.

You're relying on common sense. It's an inappropriate in this discussion. The end of the war did not lead to a reduction in the production of weapons: - Dad, vodka has become expensive. Will you drink less? - No, son, you will eat less. Literally so.
And there is a lot of scrap metal in Eastern Europe. For example, the centers of some German cities were dismantled for bricks, which were moved to the USSR.

Snautzer01 · 2024-12-17T14:45:33-0500

Ernest (Russia) said:
You're relying on common sense. It's an inappropriate in this discussion. The end of the war did not lead to a reduction in the production of weapons: - Dad, vodka has become expensive. Will you drink less? - No, son, you will eat less. Literally so.
And there is a lot of scrap metal in Eastern Europe. For example, the centers of some German cities were dismantled for bricks, which were moved to the USSR.

It is not un common sense. High grade aluminium was shipped in. Land lease wise. In fact with out that the would be an awfull lot less of Soviet airplanes. Besides the airplanes straight out of usa via Alaska. A lot.
Countless planes trains and automobiles trucks guns arti shells...

It is very far from inappropriate in this discussion.

End of war.. yes they made airplanes but not as much and powered in the beginning with pirated hardware like the Nene or a stolen B-29.

So no. It is not common sence.

Facts. They are.

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T14:46:26-0500

Dimlee said:
Good post, Ernest. Just a small correction: Pe-2 could dive - if piloted by a skilled crew. There were not many.

To the same extent exactly as the P-47 is a dive bomber. The dive angles set by the management are equal, like. The Pe-2 has a limit, not a recommendation, of 70 deg. And required skill. A bomb sight is less needed here.
Famously, dozens of Pe-2s bombed the cruiser Niobe (1898) in 1944. It can also be compared with real dive bombers of the USA, Japan, Nazi, UK. Even when they were operated by fast trained pilots.
One minute retro video (I note a very brave operator - he not only shot the explosions of zenith shells, but also a purify miss):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1CuHqWDAxQ

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T14:57:45-0500

Snautzer01 said:
It is not un common sense. High grade aluminium was shipped in. Land lease wise. In fact with out that the would be an awfull lot less of Soviet airplanes. Besides the airplanes straight out of usa via Alaska. A lot.
Countless planes trains and automobiles trucks guns arti shells...

It is very far from inappropriate in this discussion.

End of war.. yes they made airplanes but not as much and powered in the beginning with pirated hardware like the Nene or a stolen B-29.

So no. It is not common sence.

Facts. They are.

No. Still produced. And more difficult, expensive, especially aluminum aircraft.
+ Update
Amendments after a quick search for sources on the production of combat aircraft:
1945: task 20814, fact 20900
1946: task 1303, fact 1086
Further, the rise in production rates from a new low base. I'll clarify which one soon. I was wrong here. But I repeat, there was enough scrap metal. Soon the war: Berlin blockade, Korea.
From Ivan Rodionov's Chronology of Soviet Aviation
Rodionov's Chronology
Separately, the indicative Yak-9 production dynamics.

Plant	1942	1943	1944	1945 год (I half)	1945 год (II half)	1946	1947	1948	Σ
№ 153 (Новосибирск)	59	1761	5858	2867	692	353	697	249	12 536
№ 166 (Омск)	-	732	1600	926	158	-	-	-	3416
№ 82 (Москва)	-	-	373	403	41	-	-	-	817
Σ	59	2493	7831	4196	891	353	697	249	16 769

Ernest (Russia) · 2024-12-17T16:36:19-0500

Brand	1946	1947	1948	1949	1950	1951	1952	1953
Ил-4	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Ил-10	1008	871	155	178	367	994	726	104
Ил-28	-	-	-	-	156	421	772	1298
И-250	8	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
МиГ-9	10	292	302	-	-	-	-	-
МиГ-15	-	-	-	729	1913	3971	3231	68
МиГ-17	-	-	-	-	-	-	1286	2801
МиГ-19	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
М-4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Ту-2	191	376	419	273	4	19	6	-
Ту-4	-	-	17	161	312	321	368	16
Ту-14	-	-	-	-	-	42	89	16
Ту-16	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	2
Ту-95	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Ла-7	53	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Ла-9	15	858	806	203	-	-	-	-
Ла-11	-	100	650	150	100	182	-	-
Ла-15	-	-	-	235	-	-	-	-
Як-3	288	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Як-9	72	522	249	-	-	-	-	-
Як-15	19	261	-	-	-	-	-	-
Як-17	-	-	279	151	-	-	-	-
Як-23	-	-	-	59	212	42
Як-25	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Бе-6	-	-	-	-	-	-	8	24
Σ	1668	3280	2877	2139	3064	5992	5486	4329

Such a summary. The number of Yak-9s in it is greatly lowered, at least. In 1946 there were 72 Yak-9s, and according to another detailed source 353, in 1947 - 522 and 697. That's the kind of contradiction I have to deal with. La-9 and La-11 are less contradictory. Check everything! And especially yourself. But you can even check me. For my glad.
+ This is probably a report for Soviet AF, not for the Allies. Yaks (with jets) were supplied to many countries. I need to check it out.

nuuumannn · 2024-12-17T16:47:50-0500

I haven't read the entire thread, I certainly don't want to get political either, but I believe that like in Nazi Germany, the Soviet aircraft designers were clever and enterprising, taking advantage of technology and ideas gleaned from other countries to advance their own abilities (I hate the constant accusations of "copying" levelled at the Soviets - and the Chinese today. If someone has a good idea that might help your industry, why not try and do the same, otherwise how do you expect to progress beyond the technological status quo?), but they suffered under a brutal and inflexible regime during a time of war.

The Soviet system of distribution of design and work among centres of excellence was not a terrible one, in fact having various institutes and industrial bases that specialised in different disciplines is a terrific idea and the sharing of accumulated knowledge around the industry at large as standards has lots of merit, especially during wartime. The reality is, all the major powers did this in some way or another with varying degrees of individual control of course; the US, the Brits and the Germans. The problem the Soviets had was not the quality of their engineers, but the regime they laboured under, like the Germans. It stifled these guys in terrible ways and by doing so actively went against the very aim they were all working toward, victory against the enemy.

Luft.4 · 2024-12-17T17:06:46-0500

Snautzer01 said:
I gues i know why most of war time and close post time were scrapped.
How many ton of high grade air industry worth grade alloyes went to soviet union beyond 1945?
And how many ton did they make themselves? In war....
Yes the came up short by quite a margin.
Lend lease stopped.

In addition, rather than returning Lend-lease tanks as part of the signed agreement (which did happen in the beginning but when the Soviets realized that the Allies were simply dumping the tanks off ships into the sea they stopped in horror), the Soviets withheld the tanks and modified them to be put into use in the civilian sectors (ex: forestry). I suppose their POV was use the equipment rather than expend capital for new equipment.

How good was the soviet air force? (1 Viewer)

More options

DerAdlerIstGelandet

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

tomo pauk

Creator of Interesting Threads

SaparotRob

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

SaparotRob

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

Snautzer01

Honourably banned

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

Snautzer01

Honourably banned

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

Ernest (Russia)

Airman

nuuumannn

Major

Luft.4

Airman 1st Class

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads