Sad news as casualties are involved.
'Casualties' as airshow plane crashes into cars on A27 at Shoreham - BBC News
'Casualties' as airshow plane crashes into cars on A27 at Shoreham - BBC News
Hunter crashes at shoreham airshow
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Oh ****. Not good.
A very sad loss and I fear the worst.
I do wish people would shut the F*ck up until they know what they are talking about. Early reports said the pilot had been pulled out of the wreckage and the plane was resting under a bush then there was no word then there are cars involved and so on and on.
Instead of "tweeting" why cant they just pray, meditate, make a wish, or just stand in silence.
I do wish people would shut the F*ck up until they know what they are talking about. Early reports said the pilot had been pulled out of the wreckage and the plane was resting under a bush then there was no word then there are cars involved and so on and on.
Instead of "tweeting" why cant they just pray, meditate, make a wish, or just stand in silence.
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- Thread starter
- #4
Just heard that there are 7 dead and 10 injured, very sad
My thoughts and prayers...
Crimea_River
Marshal
Sad news and condolences to all involved.
Very sad news indeed, my condolences to the families of those involved.
There have just been massive restrictions on air displays of vintage aircraft announced in the UK, dont know how temporary they will be.
Vintage Jet aircraft to be restricted to basically a flypast.
Investigation of High energy maneuvers at displays.
Displays overland near population centres and motorways to be investigated.
Knowing the British nanny state this will not turn out well, but the more that is revealed about this crash the more horrible it is.
Vintage Jet aircraft to be restricted to basically a flypast.
Investigation of High energy maneuvers at displays.
Displays overland near population centres and motorways to be investigated.
Knowing the British nanny state this will not turn out well, but the more that is revealed about this crash the more horrible it is.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Its a bit crass to be talking in such a way whilst the death toll rises and forensic teams are sifting through the wreckage. People driving home with the shopping or on a club cycle ride should be protected from 10 tons of metal and Kerosene landing on them. If thats a Nanny state I am happy to live here.
Shoreham was breaking the rules by allowing aerobatics at 500 ft over a built up area. If the 1,000ft rule had been applied then 12 or more people might still be going about there lives.
There always tends to be a knee jerk reaction to events like this. I in no way mean to diminish the awful tragedy that has befallen those killed and injured but the fact is that they are the first 'civilians' or spectators killed or injured at a UK air show for 63 years (the DH 110 crash at Farnborough on 6th September 1952, my parents were there).
There have of course been other fatalities over the years but these have been pilots or performers who know, understand and accept the risk.
I have just seen that the final death toll, terrible as it is, looks almost certain to remain at 11 assuming the pilot survives his injuries.
Steve
There have of course been other fatalities over the years but these have been pilots or performers who know, understand and accept the risk.
I have just seen that the final death toll, terrible as it is, looks almost certain to remain at 11 assuming the pilot survives his injuries.
Steve
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Why is it kneejerk. We dont know what happened till the incident is thouroughly investigated till then all precautions should be taken. If a defective electrical product kills someone by electrocution would you carry on using that particular product just because stopping using it would be knee jerk, or would you rather someone investigated it to make sure its safe first.
I am in favour of airshows they are great fun but Shoreham is possibly the worst place I can think of for an airshow and for them to be breaking the rules which came into force after Farnbrough is proof that the rules were there for a reason.
It's knee jerk in respect to measures brought in, albeit maybe temporarily, to govern all air shows.
I don't know whether Shoreham was breaking existing rules or not, I'm sure we'll find out. Grounding other Hunters seems fair enough because you are correct that if my toaster set my kitchen on fire I wouldn't want to use a similar one.
Cheers
Steve
I don't know whether Shoreham was breaking existing rules or not, I'm sure we'll find out. Grounding other Hunters seems fair enough because you are correct that if my toaster set my kitchen on fire I wouldn't want to use a similar one.
Cheers
Steve
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
A few comments here from across the pond...
First off, its silly to even think about grounding all of the civilian Hunters operating in the UK due to this mishap (how many others are there; two, three?)
One question in my mind is why the authorities responsible for establishing the airspace for the this show allowed part of the routine to be accomplished outside the airport environment? Remember the Ramstein air show disaster? Here in the US the airspace where acrobatic performances are accomplished during an airshow is referred to as "the box." The idea is that if a mishap occurs the wreckage of the aircraft will fall away from spectators or the surrounding area. Was this maneuver accomplished within a planned airshow box?
I've never flown a Hunter, many years ago I did help with a condition inspection on one and from what I remember it didn't have a blazing spool up time, I think the one I worked on had a Sapphire engine. The set up for the inlet guide vanes were prone to "sticking" (from what I was told). Years later the same aircraft crashed at Chino as the pilot who was ferrying it to Texas choose to fly it from Mojave to Chino with possibly sticking IGVs.
As stated, I never flown a Hunter but have done loops in a jet and there is a level of "sink" when coming out of the loop. From the clips I seen the pilot of the Hunter seemed to start off low and get into sink when coming out of the loop (I'm not speculating here, there's months of investigation that needs to be done by folks a lot brighter than I, just my opinion). Maybe some of the other jet jocks on here (and who are a hell of a lot more experienced then I) could give a perspective on this.
My bottom line - airshow performances as such should be in a contained environment away from roads and housing. Grounding all civilian Hunters is just plain silly unless an obvious and potentially dangerous condition is found, and since the Hunter has been around for a number of years, I doubt anyone is going to see something like this emerge...
Just my 2 cents - stay away from the stock market!
First off, its silly to even think about grounding all of the civilian Hunters operating in the UK due to this mishap (how many others are there; two, three?)
One question in my mind is why the authorities responsible for establishing the airspace for the this show allowed part of the routine to be accomplished outside the airport environment? Remember the Ramstein air show disaster? Here in the US the airspace where acrobatic performances are accomplished during an airshow is referred to as "the box." The idea is that if a mishap occurs the wreckage of the aircraft will fall away from spectators or the surrounding area. Was this maneuver accomplished within a planned airshow box?
I've never flown a Hunter, many years ago I did help with a condition inspection on one and from what I remember it didn't have a blazing spool up time, I think the one I worked on had a Sapphire engine. The set up for the inlet guide vanes were prone to "sticking" (from what I was told). Years later the same aircraft crashed at Chino as the pilot who was ferrying it to Texas choose to fly it from Mojave to Chino with possibly sticking IGVs.
As stated, I never flown a Hunter but have done loops in a jet and there is a level of "sink" when coming out of the loop. From the clips I seen the pilot of the Hunter seemed to start off low and get into sink when coming out of the loop (I'm not speculating here, there's months of investigation that needs to be done by folks a lot brighter than I, just my opinion). Maybe some of the other jet jocks on here (and who are a hell of a lot more experienced then I) could give a perspective on this.
My bottom line - airshow performances as such should be in a contained environment away from roads and housing. Grounding all civilian Hunters is just plain silly unless an obvious and potentially dangerous condition is found, and since the Hunter has been around for a number of years, I doubt anyone is going to see something like this emerge...
Just my 2 cents - stay away from the stock market!
One of the statements was "banning of vintage jets" well that is a category that needs clear definition because there are commercial passenger jets operating in and out of EU airports that are older than many posters here, some of them come over my house.
As for the rest I will leave it to the enquiry but there is a proposal for all future displays of all vintage aircraft to be held only over the sea.
I respect the comments FB, there are a huge number of displays in summer many in south east England. Airfields that were in remote county side are now in built up areas. Duxford has displays and its runway has been shortened by the building of a motorway.
I accept your point but have just one point to give pause for thought, why are bars in UK able to advertise "car cark at the rear"?
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I don't intend to speculate regarding the cause of this incident, but I can't help agreeing with Joe regarding the appearance of the manouver - the Hunter certainly appeared to 'mush', or sink, at the bottom of the loop.
Now whether this was due to the pilot attempting to pull-up 'harder', or what is sometimes a natural phenomenen at certain angles/speeds in some aircraft, acceptable given enough altitude, or perhaps a sudden loss of power or control surface authority, is something we'll have to wait for the AIB to establish, and it would be wrong for anyone to speculate further.
I wasn't there, so can't comment on the altitude, angle of flight path or entry-point into the climb for the loop, but in the footage I've seen to date, I have to admit that the entry point appeared to be a little low, and all sorts of reasons have come to mind, possibly even an incorrect, or faulty, altimeter setting.
The pilot is very experienced, with many, many hours both on civilian aerobatic aircraft, and on fast jets, being a former RAF Harrier pilot, but errors can happen.
As regards the grounding of other UK-based Hunters (presumably civilian, and not the few still used for specialist duties in the RAF), although perhaps harsh, I can understand the logic, even if I don't particularly agree, and I hope (and believe), that this will be a temporary ban, and that it will be lifted as soon as possible if it transpires that there is no structural or mechanical issue which could be present in other airframes/engines.
The part which is possibly not so good is the total revision of airshows, and the ban on 'high energy' manouvers, which I sincerely hope does not extend beyond the 'vintage jet' category.
I used to work as volunteer fire crew at my local airfield and airshow, and the airfield was on the edge of a built-up area, not dissimilar to the layout at Shoreham, with open land only to the north of the display axis, which was the direction the crowd-line faced.
Until the Ramstein incident, the display axis location followed the center-line of the active dispaly runway, which was also the most northerly. Following the rulings established after the Ramstein crash, the axis was moved further out, to the north, which allowed entry into the 'Box' mentioned by Joe, and exit from it, clear of obstructions and built-up areas at both ends of the axis.
We had a few accidents over the years, just as other airshows had, but only two of these resulted in total loss and fatalities, with the aircraft involved coming down in the open area, well away from the airshow crowd, and clear of the built-up areas and the Motorway, the latter being north of the field.
Ironically, in normal daily use, that particular runway is in direct line with a small block of apartments, and on at least one or two occasions, light aircraft either overshooting or experiencing problems on take off, ended up very close, or virtually up against, the building !
These incidents didn't even cause an outcry from local residents, let alone reach the 'sensation desk' of the Press.
As has been mentioned, many airfields in the UK which are the venue for airshows, were built, and have operated, long before the expansion of built-up areas, and continue to fulfill the CAA requirements, Duxford being a prime example, and these currently operate daily , without problems, and without anyone even giving a though to any possibility of an aircraft crashing onto a road or buildings.
But when an accident does occur, particularly during a 'high-visibility' event such as an airshow, is when the outcry starts, and though I hold the deepest sympathy for the victims and fanilies of this latest tragedy, and pray that the pilot pulls through, I sincerely hope that this latest tragic accident, coupled with the one in Switzerland and the crash of the Gnat near Oulton Park a few weeks ago, does not have serious, restrictive repercussions on the UK airshow 'scene' and aviation in general.
Now whether this was due to the pilot attempting to pull-up 'harder', or what is sometimes a natural phenomenen at certain angles/speeds in some aircraft, acceptable given enough altitude, or perhaps a sudden loss of power or control surface authority, is something we'll have to wait for the AIB to establish, and it would be wrong for anyone to speculate further.
I wasn't there, so can't comment on the altitude, angle of flight path or entry-point into the climb for the loop, but in the footage I've seen to date, I have to admit that the entry point appeared to be a little low, and all sorts of reasons have come to mind, possibly even an incorrect, or faulty, altimeter setting.
The pilot is very experienced, with many, many hours both on civilian aerobatic aircraft, and on fast jets, being a former RAF Harrier pilot, but errors can happen.
As regards the grounding of other UK-based Hunters (presumably civilian, and not the few still used for specialist duties in the RAF), although perhaps harsh, I can understand the logic, even if I don't particularly agree, and I hope (and believe), that this will be a temporary ban, and that it will be lifted as soon as possible if it transpires that there is no structural or mechanical issue which could be present in other airframes/engines.
The part which is possibly not so good is the total revision of airshows, and the ban on 'high energy' manouvers, which I sincerely hope does not extend beyond the 'vintage jet' category.
I used to work as volunteer fire crew at my local airfield and airshow, and the airfield was on the edge of a built-up area, not dissimilar to the layout at Shoreham, with open land only to the north of the display axis, which was the direction the crowd-line faced.
Until the Ramstein incident, the display axis location followed the center-line of the active dispaly runway, which was also the most northerly. Following the rulings established after the Ramstein crash, the axis was moved further out, to the north, which allowed entry into the 'Box' mentioned by Joe, and exit from it, clear of obstructions and built-up areas at both ends of the axis.
We had a few accidents over the years, just as other airshows had, but only two of these resulted in total loss and fatalities, with the aircraft involved coming down in the open area, well away from the airshow crowd, and clear of the built-up areas and the Motorway, the latter being north of the field.
Ironically, in normal daily use, that particular runway is in direct line with a small block of apartments, and on at least one or two occasions, light aircraft either overshooting or experiencing problems on take off, ended up very close, or virtually up against, the building !
These incidents didn't even cause an outcry from local residents, let alone reach the 'sensation desk' of the Press.
As has been mentioned, many airfields in the UK which are the venue for airshows, were built, and have operated, long before the expansion of built-up areas, and continue to fulfill the CAA requirements, Duxford being a prime example, and these currently operate daily , without problems, and without anyone even giving a though to any possibility of an aircraft crashing onto a road or buildings.
But when an accident does occur, particularly during a 'high-visibility' event such as an airshow, is when the outcry starts, and though I hold the deepest sympathy for the victims and fanilies of this latest tragedy, and pray that the pilot pulls through, I sincerely hope that this latest tragic accident, coupled with the one in Switzerland and the crash of the Gnat near Oulton Park a few weeks ago, does not have serious, restrictive repercussions on the UK airshow 'scene' and aviation in general.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
shoreham crash
I was never going to post on the forum again, the last time I posted a comment, I was banned by someone of authority, even though my comments proved to proved correct. As a retired aeronautical engineer and accident investigator, I submit some actual facts that clear up some important facts.
I read the posts and re the crash at Shoreham and a couple of things come up that need to be cleared up I feel without speculating the cause or end result of this terrible accident.
1. The power plant of the aircraft, the T7 which this aircraft was converted to in 1959(or thereabouts) from a F4 hunter, is powered by an upgraded model Avon engine, not the Sapphire. In fact quite a few Hunters had the Sapphire and most of those in civilian hands have under the wisdom of there owners converted to the Avon power plants.
2. The aircraft was flying "towards the airport" when the accident happened, not away from air show.A question does arise however, why did the loop begin and end completely outside the airport boundaries?; and not even near air show centre. It does appear from the tracking provides that the aircraft turned for line up on the air show display centreline which is the runway prior to going into the loop, into the "Box", not away from it. Also the aircraft at no time flew over a built up area.
3. A series of high speed photo's captured prior to crash and during the loop show some interest.(The British Aviation inspection Board have these photo's) The first series show the aircraft during its loop, which appears uneventful except for the flaps being deployed. The Hunter flight manual does stipulate that flaps be deployed with full fuel in the pontoons to 23 degrees at speed below 200knots, to lower the nose because the full pontoons move the C of G aft. However personally I doubt for aerobatics, the pontoons had any fuel on board.
3A. The second series of high speed photos show the final seconds of flight past a specific point, a tree arrowed. You can see in an alarming short distance the aircraft travelled in a forward distance, the rate of sink is large.
Looking at this information, I wonder two points which I am not speculating but address with professional enquiry. For some reason, did the flaps deploy causing a rapid nose down affect which the pilot countered with pulling back the stick, initiating the loop. The loop being out of character and being initiated very low(even Captain Eric Brown who was at the air show has made a similar comment), Did this rapid pull up causing a blackout which unfortunately there was no recovery?. My sincere condolences to all those affected by this terrible tragedy.
I was never going to post on the forum again, the last time I posted a comment, I was banned by someone of authority, even though my comments proved to proved correct. As a retired aeronautical engineer and accident investigator, I submit some actual facts that clear up some important facts.
I read the posts and re the crash at Shoreham and a couple of things come up that need to be cleared up I feel without speculating the cause or end result of this terrible accident.
1. The power plant of the aircraft, the T7 which this aircraft was converted to in 1959(or thereabouts) from a F4 hunter, is powered by an upgraded model Avon engine, not the Sapphire. In fact quite a few Hunters had the Sapphire and most of those in civilian hands have under the wisdom of there owners converted to the Avon power plants.
2. The aircraft was flying "towards the airport" when the accident happened, not away from air show.A question does arise however, why did the loop begin and end completely outside the airport boundaries?; and not even near air show centre. It does appear from the tracking provides that the aircraft turned for line up on the air show display centreline which is the runway prior to going into the loop, into the "Box", not away from it. Also the aircraft at no time flew over a built up area.
3. A series of high speed photo's captured prior to crash and during the loop show some interest.(The British Aviation inspection Board have these photo's) The first series show the aircraft during its loop, which appears uneventful except for the flaps being deployed. The Hunter flight manual does stipulate that flaps be deployed with full fuel in the pontoons to 23 degrees at speed below 200knots, to lower the nose because the full pontoons move the C of G aft. However personally I doubt for aerobatics, the pontoons had any fuel on board.
3A. The second series of high speed photos show the final seconds of flight past a specific point, a tree arrowed. You can see in an alarming short distance the aircraft travelled in a forward distance, the rate of sink is large.
Looking at this information, I wonder two points which I am not speculating but address with professional enquiry. For some reason, did the flaps deploy causing a rapid nose down affect which the pilot countered with pulling back the stick, initiating the loop. The loop being out of character and being initiated very low(even Captain Eric Brown who was at the air show has made a similar comment), Did this rapid pull up causing a blackout which unfortunately there was no recovery?. My sincere condolences to all those affected by this terrible tragedy.
