Hurricane IIc vs. B-17s B-24s

[pinsog]

Sorry GLIDER, we can move back to reality, a British plane, flown by Germans, shooting down Americans.

 

[Colin1]

Sorry GLIDER, we can move back to reality, a British plane, flown by Germans, shooting down Americans.

Well no
but we can move back to the OP's what-if, which was as you say

 

[drgondog]

At the end of the day the P47 only had the 0.50 and this would have struggled against the US 4 engined bombers. All nations that faced them upgunned their fighters to have cannons.

I can not think of any reason why the 20mm could not be designed into a P-47 wing, each one replacing 2 x .50s..

 

[pinsog]

Anyone have a guess how many rounds per gun you could carry with 2 20mm in each P47 wing? I would think it would be ALOT.

No one ever answered how fast a Hurricane and B17 are at 25 to 30 thousand feet. Anyone know?

 

[Vincenzo]

Anyone have a guess how many rounds per gun you could carry with 2 20mm in each P47 wing? I would think it would be ALOT.

No one ever answered how fast a Hurricane and B17 are at 25 to 30 thousand feet. Anyone know?

around 315 and 295 mph

for clear i'm talking of hurry iic to 25 30k

 

[Colin1]

No-one ever answered how fast a Hurricane and B-17 are at 25 to 30 thousand feet

I did in post #7 but I interpreted some figures wrongly, my apologies

Hurricane IIC (clean aircraft, temperate)
330mph @ 18,000ft
326mph @ 20,000ft
320mph @ 25,000ft
300mph @ 30,000ft

The Hawker Hurricane by Francis K Mason ARAeS
The graph itself is not fine graticule so figures are a good approximation at best

I don't have any figures for the B-17 but a quick scan on the 'net revealed

274mph @ 25,000ft with a 6,000lb bombload and an AUW of 64,200lbs
278mph @ 25,000ft with a 6,000lb bombload and an AUW of 57,700lbs

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/B-17/17TRC.pdf
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/B-17/17FOIC.pdf

Unfortunately, one's in Indicated Airspeed and the other's in Average True Airspeed, not sure what the difference is.

 

[pinsog]

I don't think a 300 mph fighter could effectively intercept a heavily armed 278 mph aircraft. If you make one pass from the front your done, you'll never catch them again. You come creeping up behind them with a 20 mph advantage, I think you would get your tail shot off.

 

[Glider]

I don't think a 300 mph fighter could effectively intercept a heavily armed 278 mph aircraft. If you make one pass from the front your done, you'll never catch them again. You come creeping up behind them with a 20 mph advantage, I think you would get your tail shot off.

I would agree with this but the B17 would be at cruising speed which would be a lot closer to 200mph giving the Hurricane sufficient advantage for multiple attacks.

 

[riacrato]

Can't climb? Germans had plenty of time to climb to altitude since they had radar to warn them well in advance. Once engaged, dive on bombers, make a pass, blow through, full power convert speed back into altitude in a zoom climb.

Bf 109s were often still climbing when intercepting the bombers. Depending on situation, location and skill of ground crews. You'd only make that worse with a P-47.

When is P-47 with WI and paddle bladed propeller available in any numbers? And how big is the increase in roc really?

 

[timshatz]

I don't think a 300 mph fighter could effectively intercept a heavily armed 278 mph aircraft. If you make one pass from the front your done, you'll never catch them again. You come creeping up behind them with a 20 mph advantage, I think you would get your tail shot off.

Gotta keep in mind that the Top Speed and the Cruise Speed are two different things. The B17 cruised around 150Mph. Top speed in a formation would be about that. You need to keep the formation intact. To do that, You need to keep the speed down.

As for the Hurricane, the same thing applies but not to as great an extent. The numbers north of 300Mph are for a new airplane, running solo. Put a formation of 4 or 12 together and the speed drops quickly. Think in terms of a formation speed in the 230 to250Mph range for the Hurricanes. Maybe even 200mph as the formation gets over 12 airplanes.

Once the Hurricanes attack, then the individual airplanes speed becomes more important. Most likely, the Hurricanes will be attacking in groups or singly. As such, the top speed of each airplane, on full power but not with boost, comes into play. And that is very variable. An airplane 6 months old that's been flown a lot might have a top speed of only 275mph while one that came out of the factory only two days before may make close to 320.

Had the experience myself of flying two different airplanes of the same exact type and had one fly 10-15% slower than the other. Why? Engine wear putting out lower horsepower than the other, rigging of the flight controls, wear and tear on the airframe will screw with the performance in a big way. Especially top speed and climb. Those two are easily affected by changes in the airplane.

Just a little food for thought.

 

[Timppa]

The pre 47D-10 also did not have WI although the -2 and -5 were retrofitted with WI along w/Paddle Prop.. still could not touch a 109 in any climb but a zoom climb (as an example).

Gabreski (in his bio) disagrees.
"Previously, we found the fastest way to gain altitude in combat was to dive and zoom, and the German pilots were well aware of it. Now we could pull the P-47's nose up and keep on going after them."
The US term for water injection was ADI ("Anti-Detonant Injection")

 

[drgondog]

Gabreski (in his bio) disagrees.
"Previously, we found the fastest way to gain altitude in combat was to dive and zoom, and the German pilots were well aware of it. Now we could pull the P-47's nose up and keep on going after them."
The US term for water injection was ADI ("Anti-Detonant Injection")

Timppa - USAAF test pilots did not achieve superior rates of climb in the P47D-10 over a P-51 or a P-38.

Both Gabreski and Johnson were very enthusiastic about its 'new' ROC but, as Johnson claimed, a 47D outclimbing a Spit in his book was also stretching the realities a tad.

In addition to the above points, Gabreski didn't identify the German a/c that the 47D could continue pursuing in a climb - but I suspect that it was a 190?

I have sat and listened through many many discussions between air force aces that fought in MTO and ETO and there was never one statement that either a P-47 or a Mustang could outclimb a 109. Ditto for outclimbing or out turning a contemporary Spit

Never.

 

[pinsog]

The reason German aircraft were sometimes still climbing when they were meeting the bombers was because they were so short ranged that they had to wait until the last possible minute to launch them or they might run out of fuel. A P47 employed by Germany would have plenty of fuel to launch before the bombers arrived and climb above them and loiter for a bit. In fact, if Germany had P47's, couldn't they have brought more units in from farther away to help intercept bomber formations? The Allies would often zigzag bomber formations so the Germans would launch fighters from the wrong area and then turn away so those fighters would land due to low fuel and then turn the formation back again, catching German fighters in that area on the ground refueling. That wouldn't have been an issue if the Germans would have had longer legged fighters.

 

[Glider]

Gotta keep in mind that the Top Speed and the Cruise Speed are two different things. The B17 cruised around 150Mph. Top speed in a formation would be about that. You need to keep the formation intact. To do that, You need to keep the speed down.

As for the Hurricane, the same thing applies but not to as great an extent. The numbers north of 300Mph are for a new airplane, running solo. Put a formation of 4 or 12 together and the speed drops quickly. Think in terms of a formation speed in the 230 to250Mph range for the Hurricanes. Maybe even 200mph as the formation gets over 12 airplanes.

Once the Hurricanes attack, then the individual airplanes speed becomes more important. Most likely, the Hurricanes will be attacking in groups or singly. As such, the top speed of each airplane, on full power but not with boost, comes into play. And that is very variable. An airplane 6 months old that's been flown a lot might have a top speed of only 275mph while one that came out of the factory only two days before may make close to 320.

Had the experience myself of flying two different airplanes of the same exact type and had one fly 10-15% slower than the other. Why? Engine wear putting out lower horsepower than the other, rigging of the flight controls, wear and tear on the airframe will screw with the performance in a big way. Especially top speed and climb. Those two are easily affected by changes in the airplane.

Just a little food for thought.

All good and valid points and at the end of the day the Hurricane will still have a 100+ mph advantage over the cruising B17/B24.

More than sufficient for the task in hand.

 

[Vincenzo]

The B17 cruised around 150Mph..

afaik this cruising speed it's IAS and not TAS

 

[pinsog]

Please define difference between IAS and TAS.

 

[Shortround6]

Please define difference between IAS and TAS.

See: True Airspeed Calculator

 

[timmo]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the ability of the pilot to shoot to kill, no matter what weapon?

I certainly couldn't!!

= Tim

 

[CharlesBronson]

Not well, too slow rate of climb.

 

[Colin1]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the ability of the pilot to shoot to kill, no matter what weapon?

I certainly couldn't!!

= Tim

Tim
did you fly the later versions of the Hurricane? How rapidly did the Hurricane airframe bleed off energy in turns?