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afaik this cruising speed it's IAS and not TAS
The reason German aircraft were sometimes still climbing when they were meeting the bombers was because they were so short ranged that they had to wait until the last possible minute to launch them or they might run out of fuel.
afaik this cruising speed it's IAS and not TAS
Nobody seems to have mentioned the ability of the pilot to shoot to kill, no matter what weapon?
I certainly couldn't!!
= Tim
All good and valid points and at the end of the day the Hurricane will still have a 100+ mph advantage over the cruising B17/B24.
More than sufficient for the task in hand.
Agreed Vincenzo, but the affect is the same with the Hurricane. So, if the TAS for the B17 is 150 and the Hurris is running at 250, they both have the correction factor in their speeds. Kinda like the Altimeter being set without taking the local conditions (hence the reason why the tower always tells you the altimeter setting, so everyone has the same correction in).
In short, everybody is playing with the same localy based correction.
TIMSHATZ, I never heard of pilots having trouble shooting at each other unless they were just afraid of getting killed themselves. Everyone has heard of soldiers having trouble pulling the trigger, but that was a human being in the sights of a rifle, not a piece of machinery surrounding a pilot. I have always read that pilots detatched themselves from what was happening and convinced themselves that they were shooting at machinery and not trying to kill the pilot, except of course those that hated the enemy badly enough that they WERE trying to kill the other pilot.
Tim, I think your post makes some good points. Two other factors which fit in with what you said is that most successful fighter pilots had very good eyesight and many of them were very good gunners. An example was Joe Foss who had a lot of experience hunting, especially wing shooting. Of course the good eyesight contributes to the good SA.
Timppa - USAAF test pilots did not achieve superior rates of climb in the P47D-10 over a P-51 or a P-38.
TIMSHATZ, I agree with your whole paragraph. Everything you put in there I have read somewhere at sometime. One other thing that I have read, supposedly most WW2 American aces were farm boys, country boys, rural raised young men. Evidently they had learned wing shooting and shooting small game and deer on the run so they already understood the concept of leading the target.
Hmm.. I did not make any claim about the climbrates between American planes.
But since you brought it up: P-47D w/ paddle blade propeller and ADI outclimbs P-51D above 25,000ft.
Also the climb rate is at least equal, if not better, than Bf109-G6 ( again above 25,000ft).
Bf109-K4 climbs better than P-47D through the whole height range. But compared to P-47M it is again inferior above 25,000ft.
There is a good segment in a show called "Piece of Cake" about British fighter pilots during the Battle of Britian that pretty much covers it. The scene is where the Squadron Leader (a guy named Fanny, believe it or not) is talking to his intelliegence officer and one other guy about the pilots in the squadron. He says, and I'm going on memory but it was a well done scene so I kinda remember it, "We've got two good pilots, 3-4 average pilots and the rest aren't worth anything". The scene is composed right after gun camera shows one of the pilots in the squadron shooting down another RAF fighter (thought it was an ME109).
Only 5% of fighter pilots become aces. There are a multitude of reasons why. First, opportunity. A lot of pilots will fly a full tour without ever seeing an enemy aircraft. Second, (and this is a very rough list) determination. A pilot who sets out to shoot down another airplane is taking a pretty good risk that he himself will be shotdown himself. Most guys get shot down without knowing anyone else is there. There are a lot of reasons for it but the two most common are having a low SA (situational awareness, or not knowing what is going on and who's around) and they are committed to an attack when they themselves are attacked. The last point is very important as the determination to make a kill is difference between an ace and a good pilot. When you make an attack on somebody, you know the odds of getting shot down are increasing as you make your run. So, the old rule of get in, hit and get out is the standard.
A lot of pilots don't want to take that risk. 99% of the time, if you see the guy making a run on you, you can avoid him fairly easily. Most guys work from that perspective and spend as much time as possible covering their own and their buddies ass. Dogfights, while somewhat famous, are relatively rare. If one or the other guy doesn't want to fight and they both see each other from far enough away, there won't be a long fight. The one who doesn't want to take the chance will clear out. It's not cowardice, it's smart. It's the way to survive. And plenty of people did it and nobody though any less of them for it. For every ace, there have to be a couple of guys up there watching their tails.
Kind of a long and meandering post but I hope I covered some of the perspective.
The trials conducted with the G-6/U2 by the RAF performed concluded the Bf 109 was slightly superior in climb to the Mustang III with 18 lbs boost until around 20,000 feet. So that is in line with your observations.Nearly true Timppa. Both the 51B/C and D with 1650-7 outclimbed the P-47D-10 and subsequent variants of the D up to ~ 30,000 feet - and combat between German fighters and most USAAF fighters was from 25,000 feet to the deck.. where the P-47 increasingly was at a disadvantage in both the horizontal and vertical with the contemporary German fighters as the altitude decreased after the initial contact.. as well as the P-51B/C and D.
P-47 Performance Tests
P-51 Mustang Performance
I need to check but IIRC the 109G6-A/S outclimbed both the P-51 and P-47 at 30K.
The Luftwaffe (as well as all of Germany) never saw more than 60 P-47M's on any given day after Christmas 1944 as only the 56th FG had them. Further, the wiring harness issues with the M largely rendered it ineffective compared to its target performance until March 1945. So what might the point be to bring up the P-47M?
The point of my challenge to the Gabreski recollection (and Robert Johnson's) is that while they marvelled at the performance boost of the paddle prop ad WI - that combination did not close the gap enough between the P-47D and the 109G to match it in climb - I should have stipulated that was true only for the first 30,000 feet above sea level to make my statement clearer.
The P-47D was an excellent fighter but, until the M, it was never a world beater in the positive vertical at any useful combat altitudes.
''
As noone answered my question I searched a bit and found the Curtiss paddle blade propeller and WI to be used on most P-47s starting November-December '43. Right?
I was at a Fighter Aces reunion in Dalls (~1967) with my father when WFAA (Channel 8) reporter questioned several aces including Rall and Olds and Foss and Yeager, etc, including my father - all of them gave the stock answers to 'what makes a fighter pilot'?? Except for one ace, Billy Hovde, all of them gave the same general answers. "know the capability of your airplane as well as the enemy a/c, have situational awareness, close until you are in range to shoot, keep your airspeed up, be aggressive,etc, etc"
When the reporter stuck his mic in front of Hovde, (who was feeling little pain), he thought for a couple of seconds and said'..
Well, the first god_______ed thing you have to have is a reminder that no one lives forever"
Hovde took 12 ships of the 358FS/355FG into a gaggle of 75+ Fw 190s with some escorting 109s on December 5, 1944 and personally shot down 5, shared a sixth while the squadron nailed 12 and completely broke up the attack over Berlin - with no losses. Distinguished Service Cross. He walked his talk.