If italy Joined the allies World War 2

[pbehn]

More than 4,5 million Ukrainians fought (for several reasons ) for Stalin,less than 450000 fought for Hitler .
Heydrich said that the Germans were welcomed as liberators in the former Polish Ukrainian territories, but not in Soviet Ukraine .
That's the main reason why Stalin occupied Eastern Poland ,which was dominated by the anti Polish and anti Soviet OUN.
Source : Collaboration in German occupied Ukraine .

How many said "Sorry Joe, I am not interested"?

 

[Glider]

A lot , some people said that if the Italians joined the Wallies in 1939,this would help the Wallies. Other people have a different opinion .
But ,NO ONE has answered the question : WHY would Italy join the Wallies ? What was in it for the Italians ?
The experience of WWI was not inciting Italy to join the Wallies .In 1915 Italy declared war on AH (a year later on Germany ) against the promise that it would receive parts of AH and of the Ottoman Empire .But Italy got almost nothing,the excuse of LG and Clemenceau was that Wilson opposed it ,and they took the promised territories for themselves .
Than the discussion was going to the USSR, some people talking about the role/strength of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in the USSR.
Finally the Cold War propaganda was coming : clichés as brutal dictators ,freedom fighters, (all dictators are brutal ) ,the wrongly called collaboration between the USSR and Germany, the Western Betrayal,etc .
The truth is that Italy was more useful as ally to Germany,than it could be as ally for the West . Also in WWI : Italy would be more useful for Germany and AH than for the West : the only thing Italy accomplished was the massacre at the Isonzo . Neutrality of Italy would also help Germany more than the Wallies . In both world wars .
Now, I expect the old Allo Allo clichés of the coward and incompetent Italians who prevented Rommel the Great from conquering the ME .

Clearly you didn't read my earlier posting when I mentioned the Italian forces.

I think to be honest the only major advantage I can think if should the Italians joined the allies in WW2 would be the availability of well trained pilots. The Italian piloting skills were always considered to be high, what they lacked were tactical training and modern aircraft. This they could have been trained and supplied with.
Giving the Italians the Merlin design as quickly as possible would have helped transform their air force and a similar improvement would have been seen in the Italian Army and Navy.

The Italian Army on many occasions fought well but were let down by the quality and quantity of their trucks, soft vehicles and other equipment. Their navy was a similar example. The ships themselves of all types were generally as good as anyone's and some had very clever and unique features, but they were let down by the lack of modern fire control, anti submarine, anti aircraft and radar systems.

I don't see any Allo Allo comment in what I said. Neither do I see any negative comments about their bravery. Just an acknowledgement of the truth, they lacked the technology.

Why would the Italians join the western allies?
I would suggest for the economic benefits and modernisation of its infrastructure and industry. Spain was a dictatorship of the time and tried to play one card against another staying out of the conflict and it did considerable economic damage which took decades to recover from. Italy had a lot to offer the Allies and could have played the cards of fate in a very different manner.
Also why not, there were strong forces within Japan to not join the German in a formal pact. If Japan could do that why not the Italians.

If you want to drag Russia into a thread about Italy fine but it's worth remembering that many countries (including Spain) sent forces or Volunteers to fight in Russia. Indeed the core of the final defence of Berlin at the end were French SS units, not German.

The cruelty of the Russian System is well laid out in history from well before the start of the war. Debate and defend it if you wish, but do so in its own thread.

 

[ThomasP]

If Italy had offered to join the Allies, they would have been welcomed with open arms and offers of assistance. I do not know how many people in this discussion are aware of the fact that Mussolini was applauded by the Wallstreet Journal, and other economic oriented media, here in the US and in various European nations. The corporate-fascism part of fascism used by Mussolini - along with his anti-communist behavior - was openly admired by much of the western world, and most of the very wealthy and titans of US industry loved him. Much of the pre-war US based resistance to fighting against Germany was as a reaction to the expected loss of income by big business, and the rich and powerful.

In the early-1930s France broached the idea of invading and occupying Germany when it was realized that Germans were seriously rearming. The reason France did not move into Germany pre-start date of the historical hostilities is due to the US and UK urging them not to - the reasons given by the US were almost entirely self-interested and economic in nature. (Usually the decision is blamed on the UK and France.) At the time France could have easily rolled over any German resistance, the problems that might be brought about by the ensuing occupation being secondary in French eyes.

If Italy had approached the French before/at the start of the war, I suspect France would have been rather happy. I know that many in the UK and the US would have been ecstatic.

 

[Greg Boeser]

As it was, Italy remained neutral until the fall of France was assured, then jumped in hoping to secure a slice of the French silk pie.
So I could see a scenario where Mussolini waited for the outcome of the German invasion of the West, and if Hitler got bogged down, to suddenly have an epiphany and side with the Allies, hoping to get a slice of the German chocolate cake.

 

[The Basket]

My logic says Italy is not going to fight Germany.

But could go for belligerent neutrality.

To act as Germany weapon builder and allow her ports to break the British blockade.

So they would have to throw gold and diamonds at Mussolini to keep him sweet. So Mussolini would have still been ruler of Italy rolling around in dollars living a life of luxury. Or not.

If any guy chose the wrong horse in history, it was Benito.

 

[Shortround6]

To act as Germany weapon builder and allow her ports to break the British blockade.

This might have been more trouble to the Germans than it was worth. The Italians made about 1/14 (yes 1/14th) the amount of steel per year as Germany did and had to use imported coal from Germany to do it. If the Allies discover too much "contraband" going into Italian ports then Italy's status as a neutral is really on shaky ground.

 

[ljadw]

Clearly you didn't read my earlier posting when I mentioned the Italian forces.

I think to be honest the only major advantage I can think if should the Italians joined the allies in WW2 would be the availability of well trained pilots. The Italian piloting skills were always considered to be high, what they lacked were tactical training and modern aircraft. This they could have been trained and supplied with.
Giving the Italians the Merlin design as quickly as possible would have helped transform their air force and a similar improvement would have been seen in the Italian Army and Navy.

The Italian Army on many occasions fought well but were let down by the quality and quantity of their trucks, soft vehicles and other equipment. Their navy was a similar example. The ships themselves of all types were generally as good as anyone's and some had very clever and unique features, but they were let down by the lack of modern fire control, anti submarine, anti aircraft and radar systems.

I don't see any Allo Allo comment in what I said. Neither do I see any negative comments about their bravery. Just an acknowledgement of the truth, they lacked the technology.

Why would the Italians join the western allies?
I would suggest for the economic benefits and modernisation of its infrastructure and industry. Spain was a dictatorship of the time and tried to play one card against another staying out of the conflict and it did considerable economic damage which took decades to recover from. Italy had a lot to offer the Allies and could have played the cards of fate in a very different manner.
Also why not, there were strong forces within Japan to not join the German in a formal pact. If Japan could do that why not the Italians.

If you want to drag Russia into a thread about Italy fine but it's worth remembering that many countries (including Spain) sent forces or Volunteers to fight in Russia. Indeed the core of the final defence of Berlin at the end were French SS units, not German.

The cruelty of the Russian System is well laid out in history from well before the start of the war. Debate and defend it if you wish, but do so in its own thread.

The only way Italy could fight against the Germans was to attack on the Alps . They did it between 1915 and 1918,with as result Caporetto and half a million deaths .The Italians did not fight at the Somme or at Verdun ,or at Gallipoli . Thus, where would they fight the Germans in WWII ?
There were also the ideological obstacles : a coalition of the Wallies, Italy and the Soviets was out of the question .
About Japan : a pact with Germany is not the same as becoming a German ally . Both Italy and Japan had a meaningless pact with Germany . But that was not the reason why they became German allies .
For Italy the reason was that in June 1940 most people were convinced that Germany had won and that Mussolini decided that it was now the moment to jump on the bandwagon .
That the communist system was cruel and ineffective is a fact and I did not defend it .
About the Regia Aeronautica :
Italian aircraft production in WWII
1939 :1750
1940 :2723
1941 :3487
1942 ;2818
1943 :2741
1944 :1043
Total :14562 + 914 imported aircraft .
Fighters 6101
Bombers 3773
Recon 2344
Transporters 480
Training 1864
Not included are the aircraft Italy produced for Germany after September 1943
Italian losses (til September 1943 ) : 12748 men and 6483 aircraft .
The source is : Am Himmel Europas Luftstreitkräfte an deutscher Seite 1939-1945

 

[GrauGeist]

So I assume the stupid term "wallies" means western allies, so then what do we refer to our chinese allies as?
Callies, Challies, Oallies, Aallies?

Then there's the issue of the Australians and New Zealandars - or are they "wallies" too?

Благодаря Ви предварително, другарю

 

[ljadw]

Wallies is a short term for the Western Allies in WWII,first Britain and France,later also US.

 

[ljadw]

This might have been more trouble to the Germans than it was worth. The Italians made about 1/14 (yes 1/14th) the amount of steel per year as Germany did and had to use imported coal from Germany to do it. If the Allies discover too much "contraband" going into Italian ports then Italy's status as a neutral is really on shaky ground.

On the average Italy imported almost 12 million tons of coal per year ,during WW II mostly from Germany ,80 trains a day, which was one of the major obstacles to the increase of transports to NA .
Some examples (rough figures )
1913 : 10,8 million tons
1914 : 9,7
1915 : 8,3
1916 : 8
1917 : 5
1918 : 5,8
1919 : 6,2
1934 : 11,7
1935 : 13,5
1936 : 8,7
1937 : 12,5
1938 : 11,9

 

[The Basket]

You can't bomb Italian factories. So would be worthwhile.

What the Allies would have done if Italy was breaking the blockades is up to the pearls of historical whimsy.

I personally believe the British or Americans would have simply give Italy vast sums of cash to keep out.

This plan would be a lot cheaper than a war plus all the spaghetti you can eat.

 

[Shortround6]

Before WW II Italy imported a lot of their coal from England.

British turned to Packard for MTB engines after the supply from Italy was shut off (Isotta-Fraschini).

Italy was by far the weakest of the major powers and probably only achieved that status from being an ally of the west in WW I and getting into the naval treaties recognizing her as a major power.

Japan made about 4 times as much steel per year compared to Italy.

 

[ljadw]

Before WW II Italy imported a lot of their coal from England.

British turned to Packard for MTB engines after the supply from Italy was shut off (Isotta-Fraschini).

Italy was by far the weakest of the major powers and probably only achieved that status from being an ally of the west in WW I and getting into the naval treaties recognizing her as a major power.

Japan made about 4 times as much steel per year compared to Italy.

Italy imported its coal from Britain mostly before WWI,after WWI British coal exports decreased because the coal production also decreased . And Germany took the place of Britain .

 

[pops-paolo]

Interesting.
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was annexed by the Russian Empire in the 1700's. It never "belonged" to Russia.
Latvia was originally ruled by the Germans. The Poles.and Lithuanians took it from the Germans. Then the Swedes assumed control in the 1600's after their war with Poland. Imperial Russia took over the Latvia in the 1700's.
Estonia was ruled by Germans, Poles, Swedes and even Denmark before becoming a part of thw Russian Empire.

So we simply cannot Cherry Pick which nation these Baltic states "belong" to.

Each one was declared a sovereign nation in 1918 and as such, are no longer available for reclamation by some distant claim. Otherwise, Italy could declare itself the reincarnation of the Roman Empire and claim all of Europe and large portions of the Mediterranean as their rightful property...

Yeah the Estonian and finnish weren't Russian for centuries it is like saying Italy owns grece because the roman empire owned it or the ottomans own bulgaria

 

[ljadw]

Yeah the Estonian and finnish weren't Russian for centuries it is like saying Italy owns grece because the roman empire owned it or the ottomans own bulgaria

The Baltics were a part of Russia in 1914 and 25 years later Stalin said that he wanted to recuperate what Russia had lost in WWI .What the population of thee 3 Baltic states wanted,was not a concern for Stalin.

 

[swampyankee]

Yeah the Estonian and finnish weren't Russian for centuries it is like saying Italy owns grece because the roman empire owned it or the ottomans own bulgaria

The Baltics were a part of Russia in 1914 and 25 years later Stalin said that he wanted to recuperate what Russia had lost in WWI .What the population of thee 3 Baltic states wanted,was not a concern for Stalin.

The term being looked for is "revanchism," where countries try to recover what is "rightfully" theirs. Usually, it's only applied to territory lost in the past few decades, but some people will decide territory is "rightfully" theirs based on far older losses. Revanchism was part of the reason that France was so embittered by the loss of Alsace-Lorraine after the Franco-Prussian War, and part of the basis of the irredentist movement in Italy, trying to recover Illyria. I believe this was part of the reason for the Soviet reconquest of the Baltic States, Georgia, Ukraine, and Poland post-WW1. It's been used by some people to justify Germany's invasion of Poland.

 

[The Basket]

Italians did some good stuff.

Nice Beretta Pistols and SMG.

Fiat 500 is a pass.

 

[Big Jake]

I think if Italy were to stand up to Germany with Britain and France they would have won.

Have I missed something? Britain and France didn't win?

If Italy have joined Britain and France, there wouldn't have been the North Africa part of the war, nor Sicily. The war would have been over in 1943.

 

[pops-paolo]

i

Have I missed something? Britain and France didn't win?

If Italy have joined Britain and France, there wouldn't have been the North Africa part of the war, nor Sicily. The war would have been over in 1943.

I meant in 1940 they lost

 

[Airframes]

No they didn't.
The war continued, with Britain, and those French and Belgian ( and other ) troops who could get to England, re-grouping.
It is generally agreed that what followed ( the Battle of Britain ) was the turning point of WW2, with the German ( and their allies ) forces experiencing their first failure.