If italy Joined the allies World War 2

[DBII]

One year off from what we all guessed...

Forums did not exist when I was your age. I joined this forum while I deployed to Iraq in the US Army in 2004 at the age of 23 if you must know.

Go ahead, make me feel old.

 

[ljadw]

That is still a far cry from the Poles knowing anything. That is surmise. Again, look up the two words. Language matters.

As for Stalin's good intentions, that's entirely another thread. Suffice it to say that as many people he had put to death by labor or execution, I don't lend much credence to Stalin's alleged good intentions.

ETA: The secret protocol addressed much more than the partition of Poland. Quoted below from the Wilson Center's archives:

Spoiler

The original agreement:

1. In the event of territorial-political reorganization of the districts making up the Baltic states (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern border of Lithuania is simultaneously the border of the spheres of interest of Germany and the USSR. The interests of Lithuania with respect to the Vilnius district are recognized by both sides.

2. In the event of territorial-political reorganization of the districts making up the Polish Republic, the border of the spheres of interest of Germany and the USSR will run approximately along the Pisa, Narew, Vistula, and San rivers.

3. Concerning southeastern Europe, the Soviet side emphasizes the interest of the USSR in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinterest in these areas.

4. This protocol will be held in strict secrecy by both sides.

Further amendments to the secret annex are also listed in the linked document. The secret annex specifically mentions the Baltic states and Bessarabia in addition to carving up Poland, so your claim that it wasn't about defining "spheres of interest" (i.e., partitions) is inaccurate. One part of the Pact -- oddly enough, the one which was not public knowledge -- divided Eastern Europe, including but not limited to Poland, between the two signatories.

No one is talking about the good intentions of Stalin .
Bessarabia ,till WWI a part of Russia,was not the business of Germany and not the interest of Germany .And, that the Soviets occupied Bessarabia, is not a proof that Eastern Europe was divided : it was NOT so that Eastern Europe was divided between Germany and the USSR : Hungary and Romania did not become German allies/satellites because of the Pact .Romania continued to export oil to the West till the fall of France .
The big winner of the Pact was Germany,whose conquests were mostly territories that had belonged to Russia .Stalin got only some crumbs .

 

[ljadw]

That the Soviets waited 2 1/2 weeks to launch their invasion was, perhaps, Stalin waiting to see what the reaction in the West would be. When he saw that they would do little to interfere, he struck, gobbling up the Baltic states and the agreed upon partition of Poland.
Similarly, when advancing into Poland in 1944, he waited while the Germans crushed the Warsaw Uprising, eliminating many Polish freedom fighters. Fewer for the Soviets to have to deal with after the occupation.

Do you expect that Stalin would have helped anti communist Poles to conquer Warsaw ?

 

[GrauGeist]

Stalin got only some crumbs

Ok, I see where this is going now...

 

[ljadw]

OK, your comment so noted - all good, but earlier the comment was made about the Poles having "a choice." Many years ago I spent time in a part of upstate NY where there was a large Polish population and I actually met transplants who lived through the German and Soviet invasions/occupations. I think if you had made that statement to some of them you probably would have found great distress applied to your facial area or would have had a striking blow from a sizable shoe to your lower extremities. The impression I got from these people were BOTH Soviets and Nazis were hated and they had NO choice. In the aftermath of WW2 they realized that they were just a part of the pie and did their best to endure until the time was right or if they had the opportunity to leave, which many of them did. (Ever hear of the Mirabel shuffle?) The impression I got from these survivors was they didn't want to make a choice, they just wanted to be left alone.

Poland had 3 choices :
it could say yes to Hitler and become a German satellite.
it could say yes to Stalin and ask him to save them ( if he wanted ) and become a Soviet satellite
it could say no to Hitler ,with as result to become a Soviet satellite if Hitler lost or to disappear if Hitler won
That the results of all 3 choices were very bad for Poland does not mean that Poland had no choice .

 

[MIflyer]

Denmark had a choice, too. It chose Option 1: a non-aggression pact with Germany. And things went pretty well until the Gestapo showed up in force and demanded the country turn over all its Jewish people.

 

[The Basket]

Choosing Pepsi or Coke is a choice.

Choosing which brutal dictatorship would invade you and murder your people is not a choice.

 

[rochie]

deleted

 

[pbehn]

Ok, I see where this is going now...

Eventually it will be revealed that it was actually all Churchill's fault.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

No one is talking about the good intentions of Stalin .

Didn't you mention him rescuing 8 million Russians?

Bessarabia ,till WWI a part of Russia,was not the business of Germany and not the interest of Germany .And, that the Soviets occupied Bessarabia, is not a proof that Eastern Europe was divided : it was NOT so that Eastern Europe was divided between Germany and the USSR : Hungary and Romania did not become German allies/satellites because of the Pact .Romania continued to export oil to the West till the fall of France .
The big winner of the Pact was Germany,whose conquests were mostly territories that had belonged to Russia .Stalin got only some crumbs .

Did you read the text of the secret protocol? I did. It specifically contradicts what you wrote earlier, yet here you are still arguing with history.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts,

I'm done trying to have a discussion with you. Have a nice day.

 

[swampyankee]

Denmark had a choice, too. It chose Option 1: a non-aggression pact with Germany. And things went pretty well until the Gestapo showed up in force and demanded the country turn over all its Jewish people.

Of course, the Danes managed to smuggle their Jews out.

 

[MIflyer]

Of course, the Danes managed to smuggle their Jews out.

Indeed, a magnificant effort. They also formed a resistance organiztion and I think the entire Danish military quit as well.

 

[ljadw]

Didn't you mention him rescuing 8 million Russians?



Did you read the text of the secret protocol? I did. It specifically contradicts what you wrote earlier, yet here you are still arguing with history.

You're entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts,

I'm done trying to have a discussion with you. Have a nice day.

I did not say that he was rescuing 8 million Russians . That is your interpretation : the biggest group in Easteren Poland were Ukrainians ,and Stalin had not the intention to give Hitler the occasion to create an independent Ukrainian state,that would act as a magnet on Soviet Ukraine . It is obvious that you don't know that the OUN continued the fight against Poland and the USSR til 1947 .
And the secret protocol did not divide Eastern Europe : Romania was not divided, neither was Hungary .

 

[ljadw]

Eventually it will be revealed that it was actually all Churchill's fault.

No: it was all the responsibility of Hitler and the Germans who tried to change by force the borders of the Versailles Treaty .Besides, before the war,Churchill's role was insignificant .

 

[SaparotRob]

 

[ljadw]

Choosing Pepsi or Coke is a choice.

Choosing which brutal dictatorship would invade you and murder your people is not a choice.

Yes : it is a choice .
Example : when North Korea invaded in 1950 South Korea, the inhabitants of SK had the choice to support the dictator of NK or the dictator of SK.
Most Ukrainians fought for Stalin, but others fought against Stalin .

 

[pbehn]

Most Ukrainians fought for Stalin, but others fought against Stalin .

Fighting for Stalin isnt a choice, you got killed if you didnt, you frequently got killed by him after fighting for him. Are these "Ukrainians" in Ukraine or had they left Ukraine for some reason or other?

 

[Glider]

I'm trying to work what this has to do with the Italians

 

[ljadw]

Fighting for Stalin isnt a choice, you got killed if you didnt, you frequently got killed by him after fighting for him. Are these "Ukrainians" in Ukraine or had they left Ukraine for some reason or other?

More than 4,5 million Ukrainians fought (for several reasons ) for Stalin,less than 450000 fought for Hitler .
Heydrich said that the Germans were welcomed as liberators in the former Polish Ukrainian territories, but not in Soviet Ukraine .
That's the main reason why Stalin occupied Eastern Poland ,which was dominated by the anti Polish and anti Soviet OUN.
Source : Collaboration in German occupied Ukraine .

 

[ljadw]

I'm trying to work what this has to do with the Italians

A lot , some people said that if the Italians joined the Wallies in 1939,this would help the Wallies. Other people have a different opinion .
But ,NO ONE has answered the question : WHY would Italy join the Wallies ? What was in it for the Italians ?
The experience of WWI was not inciting Italy to join the Wallies .In 1915 Italy declared war on AH (a year later on Germany ) against the promise that it would receive parts of AH and of the Ottoman Empire .But Italy got almost nothing,the excuse of LG and Clemenceau was that Wilson opposed it ,and they took the promised territories for themselves .
Than the discussion was going to the USSR, some people talking about the role/strength of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in the USSR.
Finally the Cold War propaganda was coming : clichés as brutal dictators ,freedom fighters, (all dictators are brutal ) ,the wrongly called collaboration between the USSR and Germany, the Western Betrayal,etc .
The truth is that Italy was more useful as ally to Germany,than it could be as ally for the West . Also in WWI : Italy would be more useful for Germany and AH than for the West : the only thing Italy accomplished was the massacre at the Isonzo . Neutrality of Italy would also help Germany more than the Wallies . In both world wars .
Now, I expect the old Allo Allo clichés of the coward and incompetent Italians who prevented Rommel the Great from conquering the ME .