How many said "Sorry Joe, I am not interested"?
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How many said "Sorry Joe, I am not interested"?More than 4,5 million Ukrainians fought (for several reasons ) for Stalin,less than 450000 fought for Hitler .
Heydrich said that the Germans were welcomed as liberators in the former Polish Ukrainian territories, but not in Soviet Ukraine .
That's the main reason why Stalin occupied Eastern Poland ,which was dominated by the anti Polish and anti Soviet OUN.
Source : Collaboration in German occupied Ukraine .
A lot , some people said that if the Italians joined the Wallies in 1939,this would help the Wallies. Other people have a different opinion .
But ,NO ONE has answered the question : WHY would Italy join the Wallies ? What was in it for the Italians ?
The experience of WWI was not inciting Italy to join the Wallies .In 1915 Italy declared war on AH (a year later on Germany ) against the promise that it would receive parts of AH and of the Ottoman Empire .But Italy got almost nothing,the excuse of LG and Clemenceau was that Wilson opposed it ,and they took the promised territories for themselves .
Than the discussion was going to the USSR, some people talking about the role/strength of the Italian Expeditionary Corps in the USSR.
Finally the Cold War propaganda was coming : clichés as brutal dictators ,freedom fighters, (all dictators are brutal ) ,the wrongly called collaboration between the USSR and Germany, the Western Betrayal,etc .
The truth is that Italy was more useful as ally to Germany,than it could be as ally for the West . Also in WWI : Italy would be more useful for Germany and AH than for the West : the only thing Italy accomplished was the massacre at the Isonzo . Neutrality of Italy would also help Germany more than the Wallies . In both world wars .
Now, I expect the old Allo Allo clichés of the coward and incompetent Italians who prevented Rommel the Great from conquering the ME .
To act as Germany weapon builder and allow her ports to break the British blockade.
The only way Italy could fight against the Germans was to attack on the Alps . They did it between 1915 and 1918,with as result Caporetto and half a million deaths .The Italians did not fight at the Somme or at Verdun ,or at Gallipoli . Thus, where would they fight the Germans in WWII ?Clearly you didn't read my earlier posting when I mentioned the Italian forces.
I think to be honest the only major advantage I can think if should the Italians joined the allies in WW2 would be the availability of well trained pilots. The Italian piloting skills were always considered to be high, what they lacked were tactical training and modern aircraft. This they could have been trained and supplied with.
Giving the Italians the Merlin design as quickly as possible would have helped transform their air force and a similar improvement would have been seen in the Italian Army and Navy.
The Italian Army on many occasions fought well but were let down by the quality and quantity of their trucks, soft vehicles and other equipment. Their navy was a similar example. The ships themselves of all types were generally as good as anyone's and some had very clever and unique features, but they were let down by the lack of modern fire control, anti submarine, anti aircraft and radar systems.
I don't see any Allo Allo comment in what I said. Neither do I see any negative comments about their bravery. Just an acknowledgement of the truth, they lacked the technology.
Why would the Italians join the western allies?
I would suggest for the economic benefits and modernisation of its infrastructure and industry. Spain was a dictatorship of the time and tried to play one card against another staying out of the conflict and it did considerable economic damage which took decades to recover from. Italy had a lot to offer the Allies and could have played the cards of fate in a very different manner.
Also why not, there were strong forces within Japan to not join the German in a formal pact. If Japan could do that why not the Italians.
If you want to drag Russia into a thread about Italy fine but it's worth remembering that many countries (including Spain) sent forces or Volunteers to fight in Russia. Indeed the core of the final defence of Berlin at the end were French SS units, not German.
The cruelty of the Russian System is well laid out in history from well before the start of the war. Debate and defend it if you wish, but do so in its own thread.
On the average Italy imported almost 12 million tons of coal per year ,during WW II mostly from Germany ,80 trains a day, which was one of the major obstacles to the increase of transports to NA .This might have been more trouble to the Germans than it was worth. The Italians made about 1/14 (yes 1/14th) the amount of steel per year as Germany did and had to use imported coal from Germany to do it. If the Allies discover too much "contraband" going into Italian ports then Italy's status as a neutral is really on shaky ground.
Italy imported its coal from Britain mostly before WWI,after WWI British coal exports decreased because the coal production also decreased . And Germany took the place of Britain .Before WW II Italy imported a lot of their coal from England.
British turned to Packard for MTB engines after the supply from Italy was shut off (Isotta-Fraschini).
Italy was by far the weakest of the major powers and probably only achieved that status from being an ally of the west in WW I and getting into the naval treaties recognizing her as a major power.
Japan made about 4 times as much steel per year compared to Italy.
Yeah the Estonian and finnish weren't Russian for centuries it is like saying Italy owns grece because the roman empire owned it or the ottomans own bulgariaInteresting.
The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was annexed by the Russian Empire in the 1700's. It never "belonged" to Russia.
Latvia was originally ruled by the Germans. The Poles.and Lithuanians took it from the Germans. Then the Swedes assumed control in the 1600's after their war with Poland. Imperial Russia took over the Latvia in the 1700's.
Estonia was ruled by Germans, Poles, Swedes and even Denmark before becoming a part of thw Russian Empire.
So we simply cannot Cherry Pick which nation these Baltic states "belong" to.
Each one was declared a sovereign nation in 1918 and as such, are no longer available for reclamation by some distant claim. Otherwise, Italy could declare itself the reincarnation of the Roman Empire and claim all of Europe and large portions of the Mediterranean as their rightful property...
The Baltics were a part of Russia in 1914 and 25 years later Stalin said that he wanted to recuperate what Russia had lost in WWI .What the population of thee 3 Baltic states wanted,was not a concern for Stalin.Yeah the Estonian and finnish weren't Russian for centuries it is like saying Italy owns grece because the roman empire owned it or the ottomans own bulgaria
Yeah the Estonian and finnish weren't Russian for centuries it is like saying Italy owns grece because the roman empire owned it or the ottomans own bulgaria
The Baltics were a part of Russia in 1914 and 25 years later Stalin said that he wanted to recuperate what Russia had lost in WWI .What the population of thee 3 Baltic states wanted,was not a concern for Stalin.
I think if Italy were to stand up to Germany with Britain and France they would have won.
I meant in 1940 they lostHave I missed something? Britain and France didn't win?
If Italy have joined Britain and France, there wouldn't have been the North Africa part of the war, nor Sicily. The war would have been over in 1943.