If the Rare Bear became a ww2 fighter.

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by breadbasketbomb, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. breadbasketbomb

    breadbasketbomb New Member

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    The Rare Bear is a racing airplane made from an F8F Bearcat, modified with a Wright R-3350 Deuplex-Cyclone. Both of which, the aircrame and engine are made during the later days of the war and are used post war. but I have to ask, what if the Rare Bear was a standard aircraft design to be used in Berlin? The damn thing can go over 500 mph. Not as fast as the Me-262, but damn close!

    rare-bear-4-AMG_5921.jpg

    The thing is very sleek in design, probably too ahead even for a Korean or Vietnam Era propeller aircraft.
     
  2. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

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  3. Thorlifter

    Thorlifter Well-Known Member

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    Once you load it with ordinance and armor, the performance will suffer, making it closer to the Bearcat's actually performance numbers. Otherwise you just have a fast observation plane.
     
  4. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    That's one reason these racing aircraft are so fast: weapons, armor, self-sealing tanks, munition hard-points have all been removed. The original radio and radar/IFF equipment have been removed. The engines (if even close to original issue) have been modified. All of these factors need to be considered.

    An example of an extremely fast airframe, the He100 was setting air speed records when in it's testing configuration. When they started adding equipment to make it combat feasible, the performance took a real hit.

    Another thing to consider, is that the aircraft in battlefield conditions suffer from projectile and/or schrapnel damage as well as dents, dings, dirt and corrosion. These are degrading to the aircraft's performance. These along with the engine suffering from rough conditions, many hours of service under extreme circumstances.
     
  5. Clayton Magnet

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    The engine as it is now is finely tuned and boosted, requiring a huge amount of maintenance to remain airworthy. Visabiliy took a big hit in the name of streamlining, as did wingspan. Its designed to go a million miles per hour on the deck, but i would suspect its altitude performance would suffer considerably. As previously stated, the He100 is a good analogy, looks crazy good on paper, but once fitted for operations, the advantages start to disappear. The Me209 and Bugatti model 100 are also examples of remarkable performance (hypothetical for the model 100) that probably would have been disasters as combat aircraft.
     
  6. Clayton Magnet

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    There were also aircraft almost ready for service that approached those speeds, AND would probably have been combat ready. Spitful, p-51H and XP-72 come to mind.
     
  7. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention that the service rating for the engine would be 2000-2500hp less and the cooling system wouldn't work as well or be as effective (ie the spray bars/total loss water cooling system).

    Also, haven't the flaps been removed from the wings? Saves weight and tidies up the aero a bit.
     
  8. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #8 GregP, Oct 29, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
    You guys hasd better go look at the He 100 again. The record plane went that fast with some very minor airframe teaking ... the real reason was the very special, very high horsepower engine. When they went back to normal horsepower levels, the speed fell to normal type speeds, but add another 1,000+ HP to a standard military engine of the day and you WILL get a good burst of speed.

    As for Rare Bear, the engine is good for about 10 - 25 laps at around 500 mph, That wouldn't even fly one mission in WWII. It can cruise around at 400 mph for a long while, though, and that might be enough to make if a good one. If equipped with ... say ... 2 x 30 mm cannons, it would still have a bad range ... not much fuel, and the wings don't fold except manually.

    Neat though it is, Rare Bear is NOT a fighter. You COULD get another 40 - 540 knots from a standard Bearcat, though, with tweaking and clean-up and use as a air-superiority fighter only. The question is whether or not that was needed at the time. In the end, it wasn't but the notion is an interesting one.
     
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  9. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Once the final versions of the He100 came about, it had war gear AND had the penalty of the external radiator, instead of the evaporative radiator system. This made a large difference in it's speed, which fell short of it's projected estimates.
     
  10. RpR

    RpR New Member

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    At what altitude?
     
  11. breadbasketbomb

    breadbasketbomb New Member

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    I suppose it would only go so much faster if using just an advanced engine, and kept all the combat equipment. Well... it's quite a shame. I was always into the hypothetical stuff. I don't know much about airplanes, but wouldnt there have to be at least a good amount of performance increase if the engine was simply changed from the standard to the type it now uses?
     
  12. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    The Spitfire PR.XIX could cruise at >370mph at 40,000ft for as long as the fuel kept flowing.
     
  13. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    I believe the bearcat was comparable to the sea fury in service, better at somethings not so good at others with the differences pretty marginal. The Sea Fury was a development of the Fury/Tempest so a bearcat would be better than a Tempest. The Tempest was an opponent to be respected by the Me262 at low altitudes. As for putting rare bear into service, like driving across the alps in an F1 car.
     
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  14. dedalos

    dedalos Member

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    So the conlusion is that the F8F was better/faster than the me 262 at low altitude. Can you calculate how much faster the F8F was?
    Also since the F8F was faster than the 262, the rear bear would fly rings around the 262. The f8f was really an amazing design
     
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  15. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Or worse, driving across the American southwest or Western Australia. How far to the next gas station?!?!?
     
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  16. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't interpret pbehn's post that way at all.
     
  17. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Let's take a look at pbehn's comment:

    "The Tempest was an opponent to be respected by the Me262 at low altitudes" is exactly correct. The Me262's forte was speed, not a turning fight. If the Tempest could catch the Me262 down low and draw it into a turning contest, it's "game over" for the Me262. Period.
     
  18. dedalos

    dedalos Member

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    Oh really? So if the 262 engage the tempest at low altitude in a series of sustained High speed turns and firing passes will lose?Interesting.
    Now it becomes clear to me why the allies did not bother to field their jets.Their amazing piston engine fighter designs could easily defeat the 262 on 1 vs 1 combat. Period.
     
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  19. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Given the right circumstances and factoring in pilot skill - YES!
     
  20. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    #20 GrauGeist, Oct 30, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
    No one said "easily", you did.

    Facts are, that the Me262 was built for speed and delivering a wicked punch to it's target...it was not intended to be a dog-fighter. There are several cases where the Me262, at the hands of a skilled pilot, was able to fight their way out of a group of P-51Ds or similar types, but this is the exception to the rule and a good number of Me262s caught in the same circumstances did not make it out alive.

    Unlike a piston fighter, the Me262 could not quickly recover from bled-off speed by jumping the throttle and that left it in an exposed condition. Once it's speed was down, it was vulnerable. Add to that, it's inability to absorb damage to it's engine(s) unlike it's piston adversaries and the Allies knew that and more often than not, would aim for the engines just for this reason. Hits to the engine resulted in immediate and catastrophic results.
     
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