If the Rare Bear became a ww2 fighter.

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GrauGeist said:
I do get it, much better than you, aparently.

In reading a good number of first-hand Luftwaffe and Allied accounts of encounters, it becomes aparent that the Me262 did indeed have shortcomings in a turning fight, where the very act of banking bleeds off airspeed. Yes, we all agree that the Me262 was fast, but a fatal mistake for a Me262 pilot to make, was to dive away from certain Allied fighters, such as the P-51. Another fatal mistake, was to engage in a turning fight with certain types.

If you have ever flown an aircraft, you would understand that to bank your aircraft is to bleed off speed. Loss of speed brings about a couple of conditions, one being a stall and the other is loss of altitude.

I don't care if you're flying a Fokker D.VII or a MiG-29, you will experience this fact of physical law. The Me262 was no exception. What the Me262 could not do, was drop the engine RPMs to tighten a turn to get a favorable firing solution and then increase the throttle again, to recover speed. This is where a piston powered fighter would have the instant advantage over the Me262.

Again, you cannot enter into a tight, turning fight, without paying a speed penalty.

Period.
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It was fatal mistake for the Me 262 to dive away from P51 ???????????????????? Where did you read that???? Me 262 had a diving speed of M 0.084-0.86
Because you dont believe me i reproduce from Eric Brown page 66 " I carried dives up to a maximum M0.84............and this capability had undoubtedly endowed Me262 with a marked advantage over every other operational aircraft of WW2"
Also " a very respontive and docile aeroplane","harmony of control was pleasant" , "First class combat aircraft for both fighter and ground attack roles"

Fatal mistake for the Me was not to engage in a turning fight ( though because of the numerical superiority of the allies it was not very good idea) Fatal mistake was to engage in a LOW SPEED turning fight. In High speed turns the jet would retain its Energy better than the piston engine fighters . It s arc would be wider but flying much much faster . I had a statement from a P51 flight leader that his 4 P51s were turning inside a Me 262 but the jet simply was fast enough to fly around them.Unfortunately i have lost that book

PS P51... The most amzing design of WW2. superior at every single flight parameter
Corsair was also less manouverable at low speeds than the zero but it did dominated it.
 
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The Me 262 was a slash and kill plane, not dogfighter. In a dogfight it would DIE quickly.

It depended on a surprise attack with large caliber cannons and speed. ANYONE who saw it coming could evade but, if you didn't see it coming, you were in serious jeopardy.

Nothing ese is anywhre NEAR reality. The Me 262 was out-turned by any good piston fighter, even an IAR-80 or a Roc/Skua.

The trick was to attack without warning and ambush the prey. They were very GOOD at that and not much else. Short range, not much maneuverability or endurance ...

Anything they attacked could be shot down, but NOT with any repeatibility and NOT with impunity. Many 262's were killrd with efficiency.
 
Me 262, exactly as lesser planes, from time to time had to land and could not do that at M 0,84-0,86. To protect the Me 262 landings, more than 150 Flack vierlings were necessary at Rheine-Hopsten.
 
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dedalos said:
In High speed turns the jet would retain its Energy better than the piston engine fighters
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Only if it had available "excessive thrust" and a lower wing loading. In the case of the Me 262, it was able to sustain high speed turns well depending on the bank angle (which also comes into play).

You can't paint this with a broad brush, these scenarios would depend on altitudes, aircraft speeds (early jets did not accelerate well) and lastly pilot skill.

Let's get this thread back on track. If someone wants to open a tread about early jet turn performance, please do so.
 
dedalos said:
Unlike a piston engine fighter the me 262 could retain his Energy through High speed turns much much better. Why should a 262 let its speed fell down? He could impose its own terms of dogfight.

A High speed dogfight is still a dogfight. And at High speed had excellent agility. While most piston engine fighters could turn inside the turning circle of 262, it could fly faster in the perimeter of the circle. So to correct thing to say is " the 262 had to respect the tempest IF its pilot was stupid or inexperienced or outnumbered 20-1 or taken by surprise"
About the vulnerability of its engines, what i can say. Hits on its engines had catastrophic results, while hits on the engines of P51, Spitfire, Tempest, La7, P38, had positive results in their performance.Besides, the damage resistance of these planes is legendary
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You said
"Unlike a piston engine fighter the me 262 could retain his Energy through High speed turns much much better. Why should a 262 let its speed fell down? He could impose its own terms of dogfight.

ANY turn will bleed energy and speed unless excess Thrust is available over the increased drag of a turn. High Lift translates to high Drag. A bank translates to increased Lift loading. Increasing the bank angle while holding altitude increases drag due to the increasing AoA. Performing that maneuver against a high speed, better turning, better accelerating piston engine fighter was a solid reason for "Killed in Action for being Stupid".


A High speed dogfight is still a dogfight. And at High speed had excellent agility.

Define agility. It had higher speed by 75-100mph in a straight line but bled off energy rapidly in a level or climbing turn. It could not roll with any of the top Allied fighters but could translate excess speed for altitude advantage. It had a slightly higher diving speed over the P-51/P-47 but about the same as the Tempest and Spit - but also lost elevator authority and forced into a 'nose down tuck' as CMac changed. By contrast the 51 did not have that issue and might be able to catch a 262 during pullout - but might not, also.

With approximately 59 pounds/Sq Ft wing loading, its ROC was slightly above P-51D, but about the same as P-51B w/150 octane and 72" Boost and slower than both the Spit XIV and Tempest, at all altitudes

While most piston engine fighters could turn inside the turning circle of 262, it could fly faster in the perimeter of the circle.

See above - I would have to care enough to do the actual calcs for the Corner speed of the 262, as well as know what the max Q load and Limit Design G loading is (guess 8 at perhaps 10,000 pounds). Further one would wish to know the AoA for which compressor stalls are imminent - Do You know? Having said that the OMEGAmax rate of turn is inversely proportional to the SQRT of W/S and proportional to the SQRT of CLmax*Gmax. The Rmin turn Radius is proportional to W/L and inversely proportional to CLmax.

Simply stated the 262 will have an initially higher rate of turn as it bleeds speed due to drag, but the Allied fighter with have a rate of tune much faster (~SQRT 2 faster OMEGA) with about 80% the Radius. In other words be able to get and maintain deflection on the Me 262 as it dallies to play.

So to correct thing to say is " the 262 had to respect the tempest IF its pilot was stupid or inexperienced or outnumbered 20-1 or taken by surprise"

OR, if the 262 decided to not capitalize on its raw speed advantage by simply making one pass and continue out of dodge by making any attempt to engage the Allied fighter which could out turn, out roll, and have nearly the same ROC and dive speed - and usually more fuel. The Allied fighter, once engaged in a maneuvering fight with the stupid 262 pilot also usually had more 'friends' to come and play.

About the vulnerability of its engines, what i can say. Hits on its engines had catastrophic results, while hits on the engines of P51, Spitfire, Tempest, La7, P38, had positive results in their performance.Besides, the damage resistance of these planes is legendary

Many of the air victory credits of the Allied fighters (~160) over the Me 262 were result of damaging one engine which slowed the 262 to point of easy kill... in other words the second engine carried it to the scene of the crash.
 
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Back to the thread question. No.

The XF-8F has internal capacity of 160 gallons and the last variant was 183 gallons. Neither was satisfactory for more than 220-280 mile combat radius. It could get much more straight line range with external tanks but that all went out the window at first combat encounter when externals would be jettisoned.

In other words it had maybe half the range of a P-47C or D. In ETO or MTO is would have been a medium range interceptor (as designed for USN fleet CAP).
 
As far as the me 262 and agility, we have heard pilots say its more maneuverable at high speed rather than low speed...from combat reports, our pilots said that the me 262 had an exceptional roll rate, test show that at high speed (400mph) it could out roll the fw 190a, infact at that speed it had more than double the roll rate than some contemporary fighters such as the spit and meteor mk3, one of the watson wizard pilots said its reaction time in handling(no mush etc except at low speed) was better than any prop fighter he had flown(190, p51, spitfire, and p47) it not only held its speed better in turns compared to prop fighters, but also jets...better than the p80 for example(read that once)there are supposedly reports that state the 262 can out turn the p80, but thats not saying much, some stats of p80 a give it a wing loading of 53 plus its laminar flow design, which ive heard isnt the best for turning, plus the full leading edge slats of the 262 give an increase in lift of 25 to 35 %, , they also gave the jet a very docile and tame stall, basically a shutter, and would lose no more than 100 feet in altitude... its no wonder why watson him self said of the me 262(of that era, it was the best fighter, most combat worthy and that you could do any thing in it) have read lower though( the slats of the f86 gave it a better turn at low speed than the mig 15) the p80 has a higher peak roll due to its boosted ailerons. Thanks to the power of jets at speed when compared to piston engines and the cleanliness of the me 262( plus it was heavy at a max take off weight ,full fuel load, of 15700 pounds) it had unequaled energy retention...which is why it took all day to slow down, it held its speed in turns, it had unbelievable climb at high speed, prop jobs zoom climb after a dive of around 5000 too 7000, the 262 which some one read had a zoom climb of 15000 too 16000 feet.

The topic was about Rare Bear and how it would compare to the me 262 as well, as far as i know, the highest speed a me 262 in combat trim(almost combat trim) achieved, was 578 mph, thats 10 mph faster than a good example of the 262 could achieve, it was your standard jet with the exception of the racing hood, which isnt too dissimilar to what the Rare Bear has, the top speed of RB is 528 mph, and thats not combat trim, the 262, given special treatment like covering up, sealing, polishing etc, would most likely be pushing up against its mach limit of 598/624 mph... its still an interesting thought though, try to keep weight down( and drag) by giving it one mg213, ( i know, a german gun on a US fighter)this gun weighed 96 kg, fired over twice as fast as the british or US 20 mm, had a muzzle velocity of 1050m/s, and with the mine shell, had 3 times the explosive power..and keep the low drag canopy of course, an interceptor specializing in shooting down fast recon aircraft such as the ar 234( A and B models, these reached speeds of 461, 464, 466, 475 and for the A model 487 mph, i just dont know if the Rare Bear could reach these speeds at 20000 too 30000 ft like the Arado could.

By the way, good examples of the me 262 were 160 too 210 mph faster than contemporary prop fighters at sea level... imagine being in a spitfire XIV( arguably best prop fighter of war ) at max speed at sea level and something going 180 mph faster than you!!!

I have just read that the racing canopy v9 me 262 achieved 605 mph, i believe it also had more swept back horizontal stabilizers as well, but other than that, it seems to be your standard production me 262 with uncovered gun ports and all..pretty impressive!
 
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pbehn said:
Fast mongrel what I meant was that tempest s were used to intercept 262s returning to base in this situation they were vulnerable even if not exactly wheels down, they had slowed and were at low altitude. A 262 could not engage max power in an instant.. taking nothing from.the 262 it was a fine plane I was just answering the original post.....now I am off for a beer. Prost
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pbehn my comment wasnt aimed at you I agree entirely with what your trying to say but someone else is deliberately not understanding
 
I think the sad truth is that the bear cat and sea fury were at the pinnacle of prop SE fighters, even doubling or tripling the horsepower would have made little difference, the power had to go through a prop. Rare bear itself is probably less "serviceable than a 262. The engines on a 262 would last 25 hrs, I doubt rare bear goes 25 hrs before something is looked at on the engine. Great plane though love the paint job.
 
awack said:
As far as the me 262 and agility, we have heard pilots say its more maneuverable at high speed rather than low speed...from combat reports, our pilots said that the me 262 had an exceptional roll rate, test show that at high speed (400mph) it could out roll the fw 190a, infact at that speed it had more than double the roll rate than some contemporary fighters such as the spit and meteor mk3, one of the watson wizard pilots said its reaction time in handling(no mush etc except at low speed) was better than any prop fighter he had flown(190, p51, spitfire, and p47) it not only held its speed better in turns compared to prop fighters, but also jets...better than the p80 for example(read that once)there are supposedly reports that state the 262 can out turn the p80, but thats not saying much, some stats of p80 a give it a wing loading of 53 plus its laminar flow design, which ive heard isnt the best for turning, plus the full leading edge slats of the 262 give an increase in lift of 25 to 35 %, , they also gave the jet a very docile and tame stall, basically a shutter, and would lose no more than 100 feet in altitude... its no wonder why watson him self said of the me 262(of that era, it was the best fighter, most combat worthy and that you could do any thing in it) have read lower though( the slats of the f86 gave it a better turn at low speed than the mig 15) the p80 has a higher peak roll due to its boosted ailerons. Thanks to the power of jets at speed when compared to piston engines and the cleanliness of the me 262( plus it was heavy at a max take off weight ,full fuel load, of 15700 pounds) it had unequaled energy retention...which is why it took all day to slow down, it held its speed in turns, it had unbelievable climb at high speed, prop jobs zoom climb after a dive of around 5000 too 7000, the 262 which some one read had a zoom climb of 15000 too 16000 feet.

The topic was about Rare Bear and how it would compare to the me 262 as well, as far as i know, the highest speed a me 262 in combat trim(almost combat trim) achieved, was 578 mph, thats 10 mph faster than a good example of the 262 could achieve, it was your standard jet with the exception of the racing hood, which isnt too dissimilar to what the Rare Bear has, the top speed of RB is 528 mph, and thats not combat trim, the 262, given special treatment like covering up, sealing, polishing etc, would most likely be pushing up against its mach limit of 598/624 mph... its still an interesting thought though, try to keep weight down( and drag) by giving it one mg213, ( i know, a german gun on a US fighter)this gun weighed 96 kg, fired over twice as fast as the british or US 20 mm, had a muzzle velocity of 1050m/s, and with the mine shell, had 3 times the explosive power..and keep the low drag canopy of course, an interceptor specializing in shooting down fast recon aircraft such as the ar 234( A and B models, these reached speeds of 461, 464, 466, 475 and for the A model 487 mph, i just dont know if the Rare Bear could reach these speeds at 20000 too 30000 ft like the Arado could.

By the way, good examples of the me 262 were 160 too 210 mph faster than contemporary prop fighters at sea level... imagine being in a spitfire XIV( arguably best prop fighter of war ) at max speed at sea level and something going 180 mph faster than you!!!

I have just read that the racing canopy v9 me 262 achieved 605 mph, i believe it also had more swept back horizontal stabilizers as well, but other than that, it seems to be your standard production me 262 with uncovered gun ports and all..pretty impressive!
Click to expand...

A lot of scattergun claims - Sources?

FYI a Spit XIV, P-38L, P-51D/H all out roll the FW 190A above 400mph, although there is a delay in the roll response for the P-38L.

The CDo of the Me 262, P-51 and P-80 are all in the same range - and 15-25% lower than the Spit or FW 190D.

FYI - the leading edge slats deploy at HoA/near stall conditions - not just low speeds. When they do, the drag rise is steep and quick so you pay a penalty for the Delta CLmax.
 
drgondog said:
You said
"Unlike a piston engine fighter the me 262 could retain his Energy through High speed turns much much better. Why should a 262 let its speed fell down? He could impose its own terms of dogfight.

ANY turn will bleed energy and speed unless excess Thrust is available over the increased drag of a turn. High Lift translates to high Drag. A bank translates to increased Lift loading. Increasing the bank angle while holding altitude increases drag due to the increasing AoA. Performing that maneuver against a high speed, better turning, better accelerating piston engine fighter was a solid reason for "Killed in Action for being Stupid".


A High speed dogfight is still a dogfight. And at High speed had excellent agility.

Define agility. It had higher speed by 75-100mph in a straight line but bled off energy rapidly in a level or climbing turn. It could not roll with any of the top Allied fighters but could translate excess speed for altitude advantage. It had a slightly higher diving speed over the P-51/P-47 but about the same as the Tempest and Spit - but also lost elevator authority and forced into a 'nose down tuck' as CMac changed. By contrast the 51 did not have that issue and might be able to catch a 262 during pullout - but might not, also.

With approximately 59 pounds/Sq Ft wing loading, its ROC was slightly above P-51D, but about the same as P-51B w/150 octane and 72" Boost and slower than both the Spit XIV and Tempest, at all altitudes

While most piston engine fighters could turn inside the turning circle of 262, it could fly faster in the perimeter of the circle.

See above - I would have to care enough to do the actual calcs for the Corner speed of the 262, as well as know what the max Q load and Limit Design G loading is (guess 8 at perhaps 10,000 pounds). Further one would wish to know the AoA for which compressor stalls are imminent - Do You know? Having said that the OMEGAmax rate of turn is inversely proportional to the SQRT of W/S and proportional to the SQRT of CLmax*Gmax. The Rmin turn Radius is proportional to W/L and inversely proportional to CLmax.

Simply stated the 262 will have an initially higher rate of turn as it bleeds speed due to drag, but the Allied fighter with have a rate of tune much faster (~SQRT 2 faster OMEGA) with about 80% the Radius. In other words be able to get and maintain deflection on the Me 262 as it dallies to play.

So to correct thing to say is " the 262 had to respect the tempest IF its pilot was stupid or inexperienced or outnumbered 20-1 or taken by surprise"

OR, if the 262 decided to not capitalize on its raw speed advantage by simply making one pass and continue out of dodge by making any attempt to engage the Allied fighter which could out turn, out roll, and have nearly the same ROC and dive speed - and usually more fuel. The Allied fighter, once engaged in a maneuvering fight with the stupid 262 pilot also usually had more 'friends' to come and play.

About the vulnerability of its engines, what i can say. Hits on its engines had catastrophic results, while hits on the engines of P51, Spitfire, Tempest, La7, P38, had positive results in their performance.Besides, the damage resistance of these planes is legendary

Many of the air victory credits of the Allied fighters (~160) over the Me 262 were result of damaging one engine which slowed the 262 to point of easy kill... in other words the second engine carried it to the scene of the crash.
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Drgondog
Truly and honestly respect you and i found your posts on many forums very educative. But this post of yours, i have to say, is full of inaccurancies. Even more depressing is the fact that several members liked it, even experienced fighter pilots.
Please, PLEASE read the Reports ,not of the german pilots , but the AMERICAN pilots who transfered them in America, and the AMERICAN pilots that test flew the 262 in America. They simply disagree with you . It rolled and turned very well at speed and was fully acrobatic. For more details read their Reports. I will ask you just one question. Two posts above yours, i copied Word by Word the experience of Brown with the 262. A pilot WHO flew every single aircraft that we talk about. His says the 262 had a desicive advantage in diving over any other combat aircraftof WW2.Brown one of the most experienced test pilots ever. And then , you write , NO it had nearly the same with the P51/P47 and the same with the Tempest /Spitfire. Either Br own or you is wrong. By the way he also states the me 262 as" the most formidable combat aircraft of ww2".
Also i dont understand your comment on 262 engines. Should be able to outperform its opponents on 1 engine? Also the second engine could very well save the aircraft if not for the thousands enemy fighters that covered every corner of germany in 1945
It s pointless to continiue the discussion. We have to agree that we disagree at everything
 
As did any jet of the period that didn't have speed brakes, it also took all day to spool it up too.

Let's see - throttle back to engine idle, pitch up - you'll climb but slow down. Gravity can be your friend..
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Completely agree, plus its poor low speed acceleration, poor low speed handling, high wing loading(especially just after take off at 15700 pounds)poor climb rate at low speed...below 279 mph etc, these are the reasons you didnt want to get into a prolonged dog fight with a piston engine fighter, the 262 was no Zero.
 
breadbasketbomb said:
The Rare Bear is a racing airplane made from an F8F Bearcat, modified with a Wright R-3350 Deuplex-Cyclone. Both of which, the aircrame and engine are made during the later days of the war and are used post war. but I have to ask, what if the Rare Bear was a standard aircraft design to be used in Berlin? The damn thing can go over 500 mph. Not as fast as the Me-262, but damn close!

The thing is very sleek in design, probably too ahead even for a Korean or Vietnam Era propeller aircraft.
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I doubt Rare Bear would have ever seen combat due to the USS Nimitz intercepting and destroying Kidō Butai enroute to attack Pearl Harbor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Countdown_(film)
 
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