Improve That Design: How Aircraft Could Have Been Made Better

[Ovod]

The not-invented here, and the lobbies could never be overcome. Remember Curtis-Wright was the largest company in the USA at the time, bigger than GM. Curtis didnt build the P-61 but with that much money in the industry, the US wasnt going to license an aircraft. The only designs licensed in any number that I can think of were the DH-4, Canberra and Harrier, planes that were superior or unique.

The US also license-produced many different jet engine designs from the UK, plus I or 2 designs from France as well. Not to mention, the Packard Merlin.

 

[Ovod]

In any case was "night-fighting", and the P-61, all that crucial to USAAF activities in the last year or 2 of the European war?

 

[Trilisser]

Shortround6: Just compare the Hercules with the R-2600. The latter was some 10 % larger, yet topped at 1900 hp while the Hurcules delivered 2000 + hp in a more compact package with better fuel economy. Worth noting is that the Hercules and Centaurus matched the power of equivalent Americans (R-2600 and R-3350) with 100/130 while the latter required 115/145. Which is an indication of a very significant advantage.

As for cylinder head temperatures, e.g.the Centaurus V allowed a maximum continuous CHT of 300 degrees C. An R-3350 as in the AD-4 allowed 245 degrees C. The implication is very significant as the cooling airflow requirements are lower higher the allowed CHT is. And cooling drag thus lower.

And as for the copper-alloyed heads, even NACA recommended them for air-cooled engines.

As for the "mechanical complexity, just compare the parts count of the valve gear Mercury vs. Perseus.

 

[drgondog]

The US M2 20mm was problematic and wasn't adopted as a primary weapon except for the P-61 and F6F-5N.

Dave - IIRC the primary issue with the license based Hispano was a combination of headspace and ammunition issues - but nevertheless installed on P-38s also as well as F4U-1C. Had the P-51F been produced (as an interceptor) it likely would have had the Olds 20mm as a four gun battery.

That said, the AAF also killed the 2x20m, 2x50cal requirement for the CAC (NA-107 P-51E, then P-51D-5), for Australian manufacturing.

 

[swampyankee]

Wooden structures in large aircraft by the CAA due to some airliner crashes caused by failure of wooden components. I suspect that a plan to build Mosquitoes in the US would result in the companies no-bidding.

 

[pbehn]

That only lasted about a month before Donitz ordered the Uboats to remain submerged during the day and only surface at night to recharge the batteries.
Note that the British introduced rockets shortly after the order to fight it out on the surface. A swordfish was the first aircraft to lanch a British rocket in anger sinking U 752 on May 23 1943.

I thought they mounted "escorts" to bring submarines in and take them out across the bay of Biscay

 

[Shortround6]

. Compare a Bristol radial to an equivalent P & W or Wright radial. And by equivalent I mean about the same size and about the same year of production.

Shortround6: Just compare the Hercules with the R-2600. The latter was some 10 % larger, yet topped at 1900 hp while the Hurcules delivered 2000 + hp in a more compact package with better fuel economy.

See bolded part of the 1st quote. They were building 1700hp R-2600s in 1941. They built about 1000 of the 1900hp version (pretty much a whole new engine) in 1943.
Want to tell us when the 2000hp Hercules showed up??
Was it the Hercules 230 of 1946-47?

I know that Bristol got some very good power outputs out of the Hercules and Centaurus but most of these high power levels were post war (and a few into the 1950s) and after a lot more development work was done. Wright pretty much stopped development of the R-2600 in 1944/45(if not in 1943?) . Production stopped for military R-2600 engines in late 1945 and commercial R-2600 engines stopped in 1946.

I would be very interested to see the fuel consumption figures. I will tell you that the wiki figure for the R-3350 is total hogwash, No air cooled radial used 0.38lbs per HP hour at take-off rating. The British did make some excellent cowling post war. Unless the fuel consumption figure is tied to a power output (and maybe even altitude) it is useless.

 

[Shortround6]

Wooden structures in large aircraft by the CAA due to some airliner crashes caused by failure of wooden components. I suspect that a plan to build Mosquitoes in the US would result in the companies no-bidding.

That was for commercial aircraft carrying passengers "for hire".

Something the military was not worried about and in fact the Military did put out some requests for transport aircraft built of non strategic materials, most of which did not end well
Curtiss C-76 Caravan

 

[33k in the air]

What would the installed weight of 6 or 8 0.5 in M2 be vs 4 Hispano 20 mm? Consider those 4 Hispano would be the equivalent of 12 0.5 in M2.

To follow up, we can look at the F4U Corsair, normally equipped with 6 .50-cal MGs, but the -1C had 4 20mm cannons.

6 x .50-cal MGs and 2,350 rounds total
4 x 20mm cannons with 880 rounds total

That gives some idea of what switching to four cannons would do to ammunition counts.

 

[pbehn]

What would the installed weight of 6 or 8 0.5 in M2 be vs 4 Hispano 20 mm? Consider those 4 Hispano would be the equivalent of 12 0.5 in M2.

33k posted the weights, you need a lot more 0.5 bullets to have the same firing time as a 20mm cannon due to the different rates of fire. Cannon were heavier in a plane that was already dangerously overweight on take off with max external fuel. As Drgondog has posted cannon on the Mustang Mk Is fitted with 4 cannon were 10MPH slower, but that also means approximately 10MPH less on cruise settings so around 60 miles less on a 6 hour mission or 30miles less range. The Spitfire was 6-8MPH slower with 2 cannon. I agree with your point about hitting power but 4 or 6 x 0.5" was enough to take on LW fighters without taking on more weight and drag as well as possible issues of cannons working after being at altitude for hours.

 

[GrauGeist]

The F4U-1C was used with good effect in a ground attack role, but the cannons suffered frequent jams plus icing issues above 20,000 feet.

 

[wuzak]

I will tell you that the wiki figure for the R-3350 is total hogwash, No air cooled radial used 0.38lbs per HP hour at take-off rating. The British did make some excellent cowling post war. Unless the fuel consumption figure is tied to a power output (and maybe even altitude) it is useless.

That may be true of the turbo-compound version.

 

[Shortround6]

I doubt very highly that was the fuel consumption at take-off.
One book says that 0.38 lbs/hp/hr was at "cruise" for the turbo compound engine. Cruise is given at later point in the page as 1560hp at 2200rpm at 12,000ft.
Take-off was 3500hp at 2900rpm using water injection and 13.5lbs of boost (57.5in)
Dry take-off was 3250hp at 2900rpm using 14.8lbs boost (59.5in)

Cruise is going to auto lean mixture at least if not manual lean by flight engineer using exhaust temperature gauges. Take-off is going to rich mixture (very rich) unless using water injection, then it is just sort of rich

 

[Zipper730]

The CAS Doctrine which emerged in 1941-42 was to deploy two types of aircraft to support US Army battlefield operations - Fast Attack Bomber (originally A-20) for low/medium level tactical strikes, and Fast Attack Fighter for Recon, Strafing, light bombing and capable of battlefield air superiority. The P-38/F-4 was originally tasked for fast battlefield recon but replaced by the emerging Mustang designs beginning with P-51-NA/F-6.

And this was inspired by the RAF's desert air force?

 

[PAT303]

To follow up, we can look at the F4U Corsair, normally equipped with 6 .50-cal MGs, but the -1C had 4 20mm cannons.

6 x .50-cal MGs and 2,350 rounds total
4 x 20mm cannons with 880 rounds total

That gives some idea of what switching to four cannons would do to ammunition counts.

That's true but no fighter is going to survive a 2 sec burst of API/SAPI rounds from a Hispano, early on in the war less effective guns with lots of ammo is preferred but once gyro gunsights, better pilot training and experience starts to make a difference it's the 20mm all the way.

 

[Zipper730]

I was thinking of something regarding the P-47 & P-38's used in the ground-attack role: From what I recall, with P-47's at least, they used a cover group which were generally operating purely as fighters, correct?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Get the Centaurus working earlier and put it on the Typhoon and Tempest from the onset.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I thought they mounted "escorts" to bring submarines in and take them out across the bay of Biscay

Yes flak uboats with multiple guns. A flop. Surface escorts were not tried.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

That was for commercial aircraft carrying passengers "for hire".

Something the military was not worried about and in fact the Military did put out some requests for transport aircraft built of non strategic materials, most of which did not end well
Curtiss C-76 Caravan
View attachment 637887

Very little that Curtiss built turned out well.

 

[Shortround6]

Get the Centaurus working earlier and put it on the Typhoon and Tempest from the onset.

If you can't make the Hercules in the desired numbers then the Centaurus is a non-starter.