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Why???Let's improve these RAF Lend Lease failures....
Vultee Vanguard
Again, why?Vought Chesapeake
A folding wing SBD would have required a Grumman style fold for height reasons, as well as a thicker (for strength) airfoil, making it an overweight, slow, TBD clone. Ed Heineman found the sweet spot to put it all together. Don't butcher success.The design was kept relatively compact (41 foot wingspan) and the wings were designed for strength, so folding was not an option because of that.
They did but not in WW II unless the last few months?Meanwhile, up-engine the SBD with the higher powered version of the R1820. I think they eventually got up to ~1475 HP.
The one attribute the SBD had over the others listed, was it's ability to enter a near 80° dive with absolute rock-solid stability, which in turn, enhanced it's accuracy.Given its success and robustness I can't fault its designers. It is noteworthy that Dauntless and Aichi D3A aside (granted, the two most important and successful naval DBs of the war) the other naval dive bombers, including the Skua, Loire-Nieuport LN.401, Vought SB2U, Curtiss SB2C, Stuka (prototype), Yokosuka D4Y and Aichi B7A had folding wings.
Eric Brown wrote that some of its problems stemmed from British efforts "to render it a 'fully operational' aeroplane".
A folding wing SBD would have required a Grumman style fold for height reasons, as well as a thicker (for strength) airfoil, making it an overweight, slow, TBD clone. Ed Heineman found the sweet spot to put it all together. Don't butcher success.
And the Helldiver? Scuttle it and the Curtiss it rode in on, and put Ed to work on the Skyraider early. Meanwhile, up-engine the SBD with the higher powered version of the R1820. I think they eventually got up to ~1475 HP.
Would that reduce span enough to make the SBD viable for the RN?Or they could just fold the tips like on the A6M - and have the absolute minimum weight penalty to go with it
The complication with the SBD is that the ailerons extend to the wingtips and would have to be split. Presumably they can't be reduced in size.Would that reduce span enough to make the SBD viable for the RN?
That's why the wing fold would have to be at the center section/wing panel junction, making a conventional fold too tall and a Grumman-style fold necessary. A Grumman fold is troublesome on a wing as thin as the SBD's for strength reasons, probably requiring a redesigned thicker (and draggier) wing.The complication with the SBD is that the ailerons extend to the wingtips and would have to be split. Presumably they can't be reduced in size.
And then you run into the height constraints on British carriers. Not the 17'6" height of the then modern US ships (earlier ones had more) but 16' on pre-war and Illustrious class and 14' in the upper hangar of Indomitable and both hangars in the Implacables.That's why the wing fold would have to be at the center section/wing panel junction, making a conventional fold too tall and a Grumman-style fold necessary. A Grumman fold is troublesome on a wing as thin as the SBD's for strength reasons, probably requiring a redesigned thicker (and draggier) wing.
Depends on where they made the fold. Certainly worked on the Spitfire though the aileron issue may have been a killer.Would that reduce span enough to make the SBD viable for the RN?
The primary requirement that dictated no self-sealing fuel tanks was to achieve the fantastic range that no fighter aircraft of the era could remotely duplicate. The Japanese Navy was the only air force in the world that realized the need for long range escort of bomber and actually solved the problem.Totally agree, especially in Japan's case. They did misinterpret a lot and completely underestimate how the United States would react, to their detriment.
What strikes me as interesting about this whole debate regarding the Japanese philosophy of manoeuvrability and little self protection for their aeroplanes is that we, the observers so many years later apply what we know and can only know in hindsight to argue that the Japanese were somehow stupid for doing so. The reality was that everyone was doing what the Japanese were doing, even the Americans. The P-36 was a decent dogfighter (that doesn't get nearly enough attention - I might be biased, I think it's cooler even than the P-40) and could out-manoeuvre the Spitfire and Hurricane, which in themselves were good dogfighters, which proves that manoeuvrability was definitely a virtue in fighters of the late 1930s vintage.
The Japanese took it to extremes in the A6M, of course, but we are so ingrained with that aircraft's history that we believe that it was the be-all and end-all of Japanese design philosophy, but it wasn't. No other fighter the Japanese built was just like the Zero - except other Zeroes of course. Even Horikoshi's subsequent designs eschewed the Zero's advantages for those things we think the Japanese ignored. Yes, the philosophy of the Ki-43 was the same as the A6M, but it wasn't achieved at the same expenses as the A6M. Its design was based on limited engine power, like the Zero, but we simply don't acknowledge that changes in fighter philosophy, like heavy armament, boom and zoom manoeuvres, armour plate and self-sealing tanks came as a result of experience with enemy aircraft, not strictly beforehand.
Combat in Europe, as I mentioned earlier illustrated the need for self-sealing tanks, armour plating and heavier armament, but as mentioned, these took time to implement. There were still Bf 109s in frontline service with only four machine gun-calibre weapons in the spring/summer of 1940. The RAF had frontline fighters with eight guns, more than anyone else's fighters at the time, but they still weren't heavy hitting enough and first contact with the enemy in late 1939 proved that the pilots still had to empty their magazines just to bring down a single Heinkel. Spitfires and Hurricanes didn't get heavy cannon as standard until after the Germans. The A6M had cannon as standard, ironically.
So, to conclude, what we were doing was little different to what the Japanese were doing. They took it quite far with the A6M, but it was not the norm. We like to think that these advantages our fighters had were a given because we've come to accept that, but in the first year to two years of WW2, they simply weren't.
Actually, AAC/AAF recognized the Need, just failed to elicit proper RFP out of Materiel Command before WWII engulfed US. Arnold was well aware that day fighters dominated bombers in Spanish Civil War and BoB. Others in chain of command, particularly Spaatz were of the opinon that high altitude performance of B-17 would reduce attrition sufficiently to achieve strategic objectives as we began deployment of 8th AF to UK.The primary requirement that dictated no self-sealing fuel tanks was to achieve the fantastic range that no fighter aircraft of the era could remotely duplicate. The Japanese Navy was the only air force in the world that realized the need for long range escort of bomber and actually solved the problem.
Thats why I added the statement "and actually solved the problem". Certainly long range escort at high altitude was a much more difficult problem given the limitations of the engines available in 1940Actually, AAC/AAF recognized the Need, just failed to elicit proper RFP out of Materiel Command before WWII engulfed US. Arnold was well aware that day fighters dominated bombers in Spanish Civil War and BoB. Others in chain of command, particularly Spaatz were of the opinon that high altitude performance of B-17 would reduce attrition sufficiently to achieve strategic objectives as we began deployment of 8th AF to UK.
Additional Factors seperating IJN from AAC was bombing doctrine and platforms. There was no need for Japan to produce long range escort fighters with high altitude performance
The A6M would not have been a great escort for 8th AF in ETO.