wuzak
Captain
What does "forced" mean Vincenzo?
In 1942: top 3 Allied fighters
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CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Engine boosted to emergency power limits.
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- #23
Shavrov notes that LaGG-3 with M-105PF (F= forced, ie. allowed for over-boost = more power at lower altitudes; P = pushka = suitable for 'motor cannon') was capable for 542 km/h at SL and 591 km/h at 3.65 km. Time to 5 km is 5.8 min. Table in Spanish, can be translated, also for La-5: link.
Main problem with Soviet fighters when compared with Western was the lack of drop tank facility - a major hurdle for the needs of the RAF CW airforces, along with US air forces.
Main problem with Soviet fighters when compared with Western was the lack of drop tank facility - a major hurdle for the needs of the RAF CW airforces, along with US air forces.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Tomo, Juha, Vincenzo,
I agree with all three of your posts. The figures Tomo gives in post #23 are for the LaGG-3 Series 66 (roughly the 10th major model) delivered to VVS units in 1943. The lightened and boosted (M-105PF) LaGG-3 (8th major version) supplied to 31 IAP (Fighter Air Regiment) in July/August 1942 had speeds more like 319 mph (515 kph)/S.L. and 357 mph (576 kph)/16,400 ft. Climb rate was around 3,455 fpm (1,053m/min.)/S.L. and 16,400 ft./6.0 minutes.
The La-5 standardized model of December 1942 that was supplied to 3 GIAP guard unit had speeds about 324 mph (523 kph)/S.L. and 363 mph(585 kph)/20,500 ft. Climb rate around 3,465 fpm/S.L. and 16,400 ft./5.9 minutes. Another words speeds and climb rates were fairly close below 5,000m. but numbers are not everything. The LaGG-3 of 1942 was able to complete a 360 degree turn in 19 seconds compared to the La-5's 22.6. The LaGG-3 was much lighter than the La-5 in 1942 6,405 lbs. vs. 7,385 lbs. Power Loadings were; LaGG-3: 5,083 lbs./hp. vs La-5: 4.891 but the Wing Loadings were; LaGG-3: 34.00 lbs./sq.ft. vs. La-5: 39.20 lbs./sq.ft.
Vincenzo,
I almost forgot to mention that the LaGG-3 Series 34 (9th major model) you mentioned in post #20 was armed with the NS-37 (37mm) cannon and a much heavier (7,414 lbs) model than the the boosted/lightened model supplied to 31 IAP.
Jeff
I agree with all three of your posts. The figures Tomo gives in post #23 are for the LaGG-3 Series 66 (roughly the 10th major model) delivered to VVS units in 1943. The lightened and boosted (M-105PF) LaGG-3 (8th major version) supplied to 31 IAP (Fighter Air Regiment) in July/August 1942 had speeds more like 319 mph (515 kph)/S.L. and 357 mph (576 kph)/16,400 ft. Climb rate was around 3,455 fpm (1,053m/min.)/S.L. and 16,400 ft./6.0 minutes.
The La-5 standardized model of December 1942 that was supplied to 3 GIAP guard unit had speeds about 324 mph (523 kph)/S.L. and 363 mph(585 kph)/20,500 ft. Climb rate around 3,465 fpm/S.L. and 16,400 ft./5.9 minutes. Another words speeds and climb rates were fairly close below 5,000m. but numbers are not everything. The LaGG-3 of 1942 was able to complete a 360 degree turn in 19 seconds compared to the La-5's 22.6. The LaGG-3 was much lighter than the La-5 in 1942 6,405 lbs. vs. 7,385 lbs. Power Loadings were; LaGG-3: 5,083 lbs./hp. vs La-5: 4.891 but the Wing Loadings were; LaGG-3: 34.00 lbs./sq.ft. vs. La-5: 39.20 lbs./sq.ft.
Vincenzo,
I almost forgot to mention that the LaGG-3 Series 34 (9th major model) you mentioned in post #20 was armed with the NS-37 (37mm) cannon and a much heavier (7,414 lbs) model than the the boosted/lightened model supplied to 31 IAP.
Jeff
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yes i've not seen in the weapons column,
i give data for a 35th serie (september '42) S.L. 517 km/h, 572 km/h at 3,78, time to 5 6.4'
however the speed of 34th series is not much different of that of 28 (1st serie with PF)29th series but the climb of those are the same of 35th serie
i give data for a 35th serie (september '42) S.L. 517 km/h, 572 km/h at 3,78, time to 5 6.4'
however the speed of 34th series is not much different of that of 28 (1st serie with PF)29th series but the climb of those are the same of 35th serie
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- #28
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Agreed.
- Thread starter
- #31
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Vincenzo is absolutely right about the M-82F engine.
In December 1942 (just before this threads limitations ends) the first production Yak-9s entered service with 270 Fighter Air Regiment. At that time, IMO, it became Russia's best all-round-fighter. The following information comes from the Russian graphs, Eric Pilawskii's 'Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945 and Yafim Gordon and Dkmitri Khazanov 's 'Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War Vol.1:
Altitude/Speed/Climb Rate
Meters/mph/fpm
S.L.....323/3285-3615 (military vs augmented power?)
1,000.337/3410
2,000.351/3265
3,000.351/3385
4,000.367/3000
5,000.370/2520
6,000.364/2010
7,000.356/1535
8,000.NG./1025
Maximums: 372 mph/14,100 ft. and 3425-3615 fpm/S.L.-3,940 ft.
Ceilings
Combat (1,000 fpm): 28,740 ft.
Operation (500 fpm): 32,060 ft.
Service (100 fpm): 36,500 ft.
Range: 410-543 mls.
Armament: 1 x 20mm/120 rds + 1 x 12.7mm/200 rds.
Engine: M-105PF: 1,260 hp./T.O. and emergency in low supercharger. 1,180 hp. in 2nd stage supercharger.
Combat Weight: 6,327 lbs.
Wing Loading: 34.27 lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.021 lbs./hp.
The Yak-9 had a new wing of shorter span but same area as the Yak-7. This gave the Yak-9 an improved roll rate to the extent that it could out turn the lighter Yak-1 through the first 360 degrees. Turn time for the first production model is 16-17 seconds.
The Mustang Ia was much faster at all altitudes up to its service ceiling. It had a superior firepower of 4 x 20mm cannons and range was no contest what-so-ever. So deciding between these two you have to ask, 'What do you need the third fighter to do?'.
Jeff
In December 1942 (just before this threads limitations ends) the first production Yak-9s entered service with 270 Fighter Air Regiment. At that time, IMO, it became Russia's best all-round-fighter. The following information comes from the Russian graphs, Eric Pilawskii's 'Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945 and Yafim Gordon and Dkmitri Khazanov 's 'Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War Vol.1:
Altitude/Speed/Climb Rate
Meters/mph/fpm
S.L.....323/3285-3615 (military vs augmented power?)
1,000.337/3410
2,000.351/3265
3,000.351/3385
4,000.367/3000
5,000.370/2520
6,000.364/2010
7,000.356/1535
8,000.NG./1025
Maximums: 372 mph/14,100 ft. and 3425-3615 fpm/S.L.-3,940 ft.
Ceilings
Combat (1,000 fpm): 28,740 ft.
Operation (500 fpm): 32,060 ft.
Service (100 fpm): 36,500 ft.
Range: 410-543 mls.
Armament: 1 x 20mm/120 rds + 1 x 12.7mm/200 rds.
Engine: M-105PF: 1,260 hp./T.O. and emergency in low supercharger. 1,180 hp. in 2nd stage supercharger.
Combat Weight: 6,327 lbs.
Wing Loading: 34.27 lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.021 lbs./hp.
The Yak-9 had a new wing of shorter span but same area as the Yak-7. This gave the Yak-9 an improved roll rate to the extent that it could out turn the lighter Yak-1 through the first 360 degrees. Turn time for the first production model is 16-17 seconds.
The Mustang Ia was much faster at all altitudes up to its service ceiling. It had a superior firepower of 4 x 20mm cannons and range was no contest what-so-ever. So deciding between these two you have to ask, 'What do you need the third fighter to do?'.
Jeff
directly the George words, i hope this is not a problem
"According to TSAGI book the difference between M-82 and M-82F was folloing:
M-82F boost gear, oil system and some other parts have been strengthened to let this engine operate the same 'forsage' take-off power as M-82, but during unlimited time.
M-82 could operate on 'forsage' time has been limited. According to La-5 manual - 5 min"
in the discussion is also show that the aircraft manuals continue to had a time limitation for the forsage
"According to TSAGI book the difference between M-82 and M-82F was folloing:
M-82F boost gear, oil system and some other parts have been strengthened to let this engine operate the same 'forsage' take-off power as M-82, but during unlimited time.
M-82 could operate on 'forsage' time has been limited. According to La-5 manual - 5 min"
in the discussion is also show that the aircraft manuals continue to had a time limitation for the forsage
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- #34
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- #36
- Thread starter
- #37
An important thing when considering Soviet aircraft during the 1st ~18 months of the Great Patriotic war - it took considerable effort to iron out the fit finish problems, that were detriment for any performance gain. The Allied help also eased the urge to have more fighters, even if they are not so good performers?
The chart showing improvement of performance between the fighters powered by M-105PF engine, June 1942 vs (what month?) 1943: link.
Of course, the data from the 'TSAGI book' should not be used as a reference for foreign hardware
The chart showing improvement of performance between the fighters powered by M-105PF engine, June 1942 vs (what month?) 1943: link.
Of course, the data from the 'TSAGI book' should not be used as a reference for foreign hardware
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Tomo,
I think you might want to divide each year next time. In 1943, 1944, and 1945 there were a lot of excellent aircraft being produced for different rolls. The decision of top three will become more specialized, example: La-7 vs. P-51D. The selection of aircraft and the answers would have been different if the time limitation had been for January-June 1941.
All the best, Jeff
I think you might want to divide each year next time. In 1943, 1944, and 1945 there were a lot of excellent aircraft being produced for different rolls. The decision of top three will become more specialized, example: La-7 vs. P-51D. The selection of aircraft and the answers would have been different if the time limitation had been for January-June 1941.
All the best, Jeff
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
The reason I picked the Spitfire as number one as its overall performance (speed, climb and maneuverability) + its reliability was IMO the best of the group. Its range of 434 mls. on internal fuel was mediocre, but with external fuel it reached 980 mls.
I chose the P-38G-1 for the same reason. In the following comparison of P-38G-1 No.42-12687 report dated 10 February 1943 and (P-51) No.41-37320 tested between Aug.'42-Jul.'43 the following can be seen. The mustang holds a slight speed advantage up to 17,000 ft., but the P-38 has about a 1,000 fpm climb advantage in low supercharger and about 2,000 fpm climb advantage above that.
P-38G-1 No.42-12687 (P-51 No.41-37320)
Altitude/Speed/Climb
Meters/mph/fpm
S.L......344/3300.(359/2300)
1,000..352/3500.(367/2485)
2,000..359/3650.(375/2650)
3,000..367/3650.(383/2650)
4,000..374/3550.(387/2315)
5,000..384/3400.(385/1445)
6,000..394/3300.(381/1145)
7,000..404/3000.(373/-840)
8,000..402/2500.(360/-530)
9,000..397/2200.(329/-250)
Maximums: 404 mph./22,600 ft. and 3,660 fpm./6,000 ft. (390 mph./12,650 ft. and 2,790 fpm./8,940 ft.)
Time to altitude in feet:
..5,000 ft./1.71 (2.0) min.
10,000 ft./2.81 (4.0) min.
15.000 ft./4.21 (6.5) min.
20,000 ft./5.68 (10.0) min.
25,000 ft./7.36 (14.6) min.
30,000 ft./9.46 min.
35,000 ft./12.48 min.
Ceilings
Combat (1,000 fpm): 35,910 (21,490) ft.
Operational (500 fpm): 37,725 (26,275) ft.
Service (100 fpm): 40,000 (31,300) ft.
Engine power used in tests: 1,320 hp.@ 48"Hg x 2 (1,220 hp.@ 47.2"Hg)
Range Clean: 850 (740) mls.
Range Maximum: 1,670 (1,230) mls.
Armament: 1 x 20mm/150 rds. + 4 x 0.5in./500 rpg. ( 4 x 20mm)
Test Weight: 13,900 (8,824) lbs.
Rate of roll:
P-38 had very slow acceleration into the roll, but could reach about 37 deg./sec./150 mph. 73 deg./sec./275 mph. 44 deg./sec./400 mph.
P-51's roll increased with speed. 41 deg./sec./150 mph. 73 deg./sec./275 mph. 86 deg./sec./400 mph.
Wing Loading: 42.44 (37.87) lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.256 (7.23) lbs./hp.
In 1943 the Mustangs Allison engine changed supercharger gearing from 8.77:1 to 9.6:1 in the new V-1710-81 giving it a super boost, but that was 1943.
Jeff.
Note: The P-38 test vehicle was lighter than a normally equipped G-1 for combat. It only had 2 x 0.5in machine guns.
I chose the P-38G-1 for the same reason. In the following comparison of P-38G-1 No.42-12687 report dated 10 February 1943 and (P-51) No.41-37320 tested between Aug.'42-Jul.'43 the following can be seen. The mustang holds a slight speed advantage up to 17,000 ft., but the P-38 has about a 1,000 fpm climb advantage in low supercharger and about 2,000 fpm climb advantage above that.
P-38G-1 No.42-12687 (P-51 No.41-37320)
Altitude/Speed/Climb
Meters/mph/fpm
S.L......344/3300.(359/2300)
1,000..352/3500.(367/2485)
2,000..359/3650.(375/2650)
3,000..367/3650.(383/2650)
4,000..374/3550.(387/2315)
5,000..384/3400.(385/1445)
6,000..394/3300.(381/1145)
7,000..404/3000.(373/-840)
8,000..402/2500.(360/-530)
9,000..397/2200.(329/-250)
Maximums: 404 mph./22,600 ft. and 3,660 fpm./6,000 ft. (390 mph./12,650 ft. and 2,790 fpm./8,940 ft.)
Time to altitude in feet:
..5,000 ft./1.71 (2.0) min.
10,000 ft./2.81 (4.0) min.
15.000 ft./4.21 (6.5) min.
20,000 ft./5.68 (10.0) min.
25,000 ft./7.36 (14.6) min.
30,000 ft./9.46 min.
35,000 ft./12.48 min.
Ceilings
Combat (1,000 fpm): 35,910 (21,490) ft.
Operational (500 fpm): 37,725 (26,275) ft.
Service (100 fpm): 40,000 (31,300) ft.
Engine power used in tests: 1,320 hp.@ 48"Hg x 2 (1,220 hp.@ 47.2"Hg)
Range Clean: 850 (740) mls.
Range Maximum: 1,670 (1,230) mls.
Armament: 1 x 20mm/150 rds. + 4 x 0.5in./500 rpg. ( 4 x 20mm)
Test Weight: 13,900 (8,824) lbs.
Rate of roll:
P-38 had very slow acceleration into the roll, but could reach about 37 deg./sec./150 mph. 73 deg./sec./275 mph. 44 deg./sec./400 mph.
P-51's roll increased with speed. 41 deg./sec./150 mph. 73 deg./sec./275 mph. 86 deg./sec./400 mph.
Wing Loading: 42.44 (37.87) lbs./sq.ft.
Power Loading: 5.256 (7.23) lbs./hp.
In 1943 the Mustangs Allison engine changed supercharger gearing from 8.77:1 to 9.6:1 in the new V-1710-81 giving it a super boost, but that was 1943.
Jeff.
Note: The P-38 test vehicle was lighter than a normally equipped G-1 for combat. It only had 2 x 0.5in machine guns.
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