Interceptor vs Escort.

[Lunatic]

They should have exploited the Me-262 ealier as a fighter and not as a bomber. Even with its engine problems it could have been more effective outright as a fighter earlier. It was a bad trade off more 109s instead of 190s' The 190 was the better overall because you could produce more than the 262 and it was effective.

Adler, what FB could the Germans use that they could have successfully used instead of the 262?

109 production should have been ramped down, the slack being taken up by the Fw190C with the DB engine that was close to production in 1943. This a/c would have given just as good high altitude performance as the 109.

As we've been through before, there really was no option to introduce the Me262 earlier as a fighter. The whole "Hitler delayed the Me262 as a fighter" myth has been proven as such in previous discussions. His orders were virtually ignored and the first bach of 262's were fighter versions. Engine problems prevented them from being introduced into combat and these would have existed no matter what Hitler did one way or the other. The plane simply was not ready before mid-1944.

Take the integrated control system off the FW190A and replace it with manual controls and it should have done fine at altitude. Or fix the divide by zero condition in the flight control computer.

Because of the difference in the nature of manufacturing I'm not sure if it was possible to divert significant 109 production to 190 production. 109's were produced in large factories, 190's were produced in small factories. Unless the Me factories were refitted to produce 190's, which would have been difficult for many reasons (mostly political).

I certainly agree wherever possible the 190 should have been produced over the 109. The 262 should not have been mass produced at all - it was too resource intensive for its very short life span. 5 or more prop fighters could have been produced for the resources used to produce just one Me262. Then figuring in the combat hours for the planes, lets say 10 for the Me262 and 50 for the prop fighters, we are looking an efficiency ratio of less than 1:25! No one is going to convince me that one Me 262 was more effective than 10 FW190D's + 15 Bf109G's.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[KraziKanuK]

Take the integrated control system off the FW190A and replace it with manual controls and it should have done fine at altitude. Or fix the divide by zero condition in the flight control computer.

Because of the difference in the nature of manufacturing I'm not sure if it was possible to divert significant 109 production to 190 production. 109's were produced in large factories, 190's were produced in small factories. Unless the Me factories were refitted to produce 190's, which would have been difficult for many reasons (mostly political).

The BMW801 would have needed a better supercharger system to get better altitude performance. It was hampered, like the early Merlin's supercharger.

No doubt you are saying this about the Kommandgerat because one single USA report on a faulty unit.

Naturally the Mtt factories would have to be converted dispite Willie's political manuevering not to have it happen. I did not know Fw Bremen, Fw Cottbus were a small factories.

 

[NAVAIR]

Bottom line the -109 K4 was a better performer than the Mustang. The Mustang could compete but it was the shear numbers of Mustangs and Germany's lack of fuel that led to the ultimate demise!

Better late than never....

IIRC, the Bf-109K-4 made its best speed at about 22,000 feet. Up at 25k, where the P-51D was at its speed peak, they were closer. Now, this excludes the fact that by the fall of 1944 the 8th AF was issued 150 octane avgas and they were cleared to pull 72 in/Hg MAP. This resulted in a boost in max speed in excess of 450 mph TAS. Earlier P-51B models (with the V1650-3) were capable of speeds in excess of 440 mph at 27,600 feet. Up that high and higher, the B model was faster than the 109K-4, using standard 100-130 avgas.

Remember, maximum speeds are relative to altitudes. The Tempest was capableof speeds in excess of 427 mph. However, it was a relative pig up at the altitudes where the heavy bombers flew. Up at 30,000 feet, the P-47D had few rivals, and none prior to 1945. Once the P-47M was sorted out, it was, far and away, the best high altitude fighter of the war. This includes the much ballihoo'd Ta 152H, which was far slower than the M Jug at 30k. Even though the 152 was faster at 40k+, it was useless because the fight was far lower. Remember this fact, it held true in every theater of the war: The air war was fought at the altitude of the threat. In the ETO and MTO, this meant that the Luftwaffe was forced to fight between 24,000 and 30,000 feet. Now consider than the 109s and 190s made their best performance below those heights (far below in the case of the Focke Wulfs). Note also that the P-51D was fitted with an engine and supercharger engineered for maximum performance at precisely where the bomber flew.

Personally, I believe that the best prop fighter of the war was the superlative Vought F4U-4, which arrived in combat in February of 1945. If we include fighters that were in squadron service, but didn't see combat before the Japanese surrender, then I must pass the baton on to Grumman's monster F8F-1 Bearcat.

My regards,

NAVAIR

 

[evangilder]

I would agree with that. Watching a Bearcat climb is unbelievable too. We have one at our museum and I have seen a couple of times where an aggressive climb was put into use. In-f*cking-credible!

 

[lesofprimus]

This includes the much ballihoo'd Ta 152H, which was far slower than the M Jug at 30k. Even though the 152 was faster at 40k+, it was useless because the fight was far lower. Remember this fact, it held true in every theater of the war: The air war was fought at the altitude of the threat. In the ETO and MTO, this meant that the Luftwaffe was forced to fight between 24,000 and 30,000 feet.

Useles????????
The -152H would do it's intercepts over 40k and bounce outta the sun.... Pilots would never fly at an opponents optimum performance altitude if they could avoid it...

 

[NAVAIR]

This includes the much ballihoo'd Ta 152H, which was far slower than the M Jug at 30k. Even though the 152 was faster at 40k+, it was useless because the fight was far lower. Remember this fact, it held true in every theater of the war: The air war was fought at the altitude of the threat. In the ETO and MTO, this meant that the Luftwaffe was forced to fight between 24,000 and 30,000 feet.

Useles????????
The -152H would do it's intercepts over 40k and bounce outta the sun.... Pilots would never fly at an opponents optimum performance altitude if they could avoid it...

But, that's the point... They could not avoid it. You can expect the P-47s up at 35k, the Mustangs below them. To get to the bombers you have to come down... Yet wait a minute, if you're up at 40k+ in a 152, simply pushing the nose down means getting into compressibility almost instantly. This greatly complicates things. Indeed, the 152s will need to pull off power and load the airframe to avoid excessive speed. They must drop 15,000 feet to get at the bombers. Meanwhile, the P-47Ms, with dive recovery flaps, have no worries about compressing. They merely deploy the flaps, push over and accelerate. Indeed, those 480 mph Thunderbolts will chase down the 152s in short order.

Of course, the 152s have to get to 40k and that's a long process as the 152 is not a stellar climber. Consider also the 8th AF's practice of sending groups out well in advance of the bombers, their purpose being to disrupt German fighters forming up.

I suspect that the 152 would have been better suited to combating B-29s, which frequently flew up at 35k. However, the B-17s and B-24s were about 10,000 feet lower than that.

Invariably, the fight will be at the level of the bombers. That means that the 152s will have no speed advantage at the altitude where the Mustangs will be encountered.

Now, had the Ta 152C been built... but that's another discussion.

My regards,

NAVAIR

 

[Erich]

you like many presume to many what-ifs. the Ta was to take on US Mustangs and any Allied high altitude escort fighter, not bombers.

Because it flew and foought at mid-altitiude does not and was not the preference of the JG 301 fighter pilots flying the TANK. this is just where the engagements took place. To assume it could not perform at higher altitude is a risky statement. you mention 480mph Jugs well the Ta could hit over 500 if neeed be then what.............. ? The JG 301 unit did meet P-47's and shot them down besides Soviet a/c types and Tempests. Their intended foes the P-51's were not met in combat.

 

[NAVAIR]

you like many presume to many what-ifs. the Ta was to take on US Mustangs and any Allied high altitude escort fighter, not bombers.

Because it flew and foought at mid-altitiude does not and was not the preference of the JG 301 fighter pilots flying the TANK. this is just where the engagements took place. To assume it could not perform at higher altitude is a risky statement. you mention 480mph Jugs well the Ta could hit over 500 if neeed be then what.............. ? The JG 301 unit did meet P-47's and shot them down besides Soviet a/c types and Tempests. Their intended foes the P-51's were not met in combat.

No what ifs... Moreover, not much truth in your statement either. Why would the Ta 152 be fitted with a Mk108 30mm cannon if not for attacking bombers? As 262 pilots discovered, the Mk108 was virtually useless for engaging a maneuvering fighter. Lousy ballistics, low rate of fire make it a very poor choice.

As it is and was, the air war will take place where the threat flies, and in the ETO that was at 25,000 feet.

Most Ta 152s were used to defend airfields used by Me 262s. That was low level work, decidedly not the best environment for the 152. So, your statement that 152s never encountered P-51s is incorrect. They had Mustangs up the wazoo....

As to 500 mph 152s... nonsense.

"Engine: Junkers Jumo 213E-1 twelve-cylinder liquid-cooled engine rated at 1750 hp for takeoff (2050 hp with MW 50 boost) and 1320 hp at 32,800 feet (1740 hp with GM 1 boost). Maximum speed: 332 mph at sea level (350 mph with MW 50 boost), 465 mph at 29,530 feet with MW 50 boost, 472 mph at 41,010 feet with GM 1 boost. Service ceiling was 48,550 feet with GM 1 boost. Initial climb rate was 3445 feet/minute with MW 50 boost."

My regards,

NAVAIR

 

[Erich]

propagating more myths I see. have you interviewed any of the JG 301 pilots of III. gruppe and Geschwader stab ? I have ! NO p-51's were ever encountered friend. Incidently a cousin of mine served in JG 301......so I'm not pooping here

NO Ta 152's were ever used in airfield defence either, Doras of III./JG 54 were and the weak 5 a/c staffel ~ Würger staffel of JV 44. JG 7 never had any airfield protection niether did the 262 bomber units.

you quote tech specs and nothing else. you do not quote bonafide pilot documentation in the engagements nor in the testing faze when III.gruppe pilots tested fully the high altitiude and dving performance of the bird on way to their airfield. I have the source docs..........

Since the G-6/AS and G-10 could not fulfill the high Altitude requirements to combat the P-51D and K the Dora was outfitted with a rewtructured Jumop to be followed closely and then fazed out by the Ta 152H and the C series although few in number were taken over by GEschwader Stab/JG 301 and used successfully agasint eh Soviets in March/April of 45.

The Mk 108 was the standard hard hitting cannon with few rounds needed and as such the twin 2cm were for hitting the US/RAF fighter at the lower range and while closeing give the coup de grace with the 3cm. Me 262's with the overpowered four 3cm weapons, pilots finding it was actually too much weaponry used at times only two Mk 108's in engageing the US heavies as well as fighters and also in the night flights against the illusive Mossies of the LSNF and the night fighter versions

In time you would have seen had the war continued TA 152 variants flying high cover for attacking jets and then with advent of more streamlined jets protecting their own selves the TA 152 and marks above it taking on the P-51's and other variable prop driven craft...

the TA was to bring the P-51 up for a tickle now at the TA's best altitudes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Most Ta 152s were used to defend airfields used by Me 262s. That was low level work, decidedly not the best environment for the 152. So, your statement that 152s never encountered P-51s is incorrect. They had Mustangs up the wazoo....

Big myth, been disproven already. I used to think the same thing.

 

[Erich]

it came from soem very old reads back in the 1960's when author William Greens big boy Third Reich a/c ame into view. His book was an still is taken as the Bible towards Luftwaffe a/c and aerial histories, but fact is he is dead wrong as some of the materails from German author Uwe FEist promted some silly stuff and so did several others.

Pilot of JG 301 Will Reschke came out with his treatise on his unit along with a brief synop by Kagero, mostly Profiles. D. Harmann tried as he may with his tech stuff he did not and still does not have full access to the Docs ~ and ops on JG 301. Monogram printed out a small softback and still a brilliant piece of research on the TA and ops. there was a breif reuion just held at Dresden via a Colonel freind who knew 5 of the pilots personally and I wa able to fill in some blanks with their flying exploits in the Fw 190A and Ta 152H. Friend Jerry Crandall probably the American author who has seen and interviewed the JG 301 guys at length is still working on his book with full details covering the Ta 152......I've been able to fill in some tidbits for him including some pics..

 

[syscom3]

In time you would have seen had the war continued TA 152 variants flying high cover for attacking jets and then with advent of more streamlined jets protecting their own selves the TA 152 and marks above it taking on the P-51's and other variable prop driven craft...

Actually if the war had continued a few months longer, it would have been Ta152's and Me262's vs P80's. And even if there were no P80's around, while the Ta152 was lining up for its shots, there would be hordes of --51's, -47's and -38's lined up to take shots at them from 30,000 ft all the way down to the ground.

Also, although the german 20mm cannon was good, by no means think that "just a few" rounds will bring down a bomber. It sure takes a lot more than that. You think the B17 and B24 structures were just peices of tin foil covering hanger wire?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Actually if the war had continued a few months longer, it would have been Ta152's and Me262's vs P80's. And even if there were no P80's around, while the Ta152 was lining up for its shots, there would be hordes of --51's, -47's and -38's lined up to take shots at them from 30,000 ft all the way down to the ground.

Exactly through sheer numbers only, not because of technical superiority.

 

[Erich]

no 3 rounds of 3cm Minengeschoss, 10 rounds of 2cm Minengeschoss to bring down a heavy.

the TA pilots have always said c'mon up to our altitude if you want to die. they never got a chance to prove their statements as they were brought down to the Allies level. had we have seen all non jet units equipped with well trained Ta 152H and pilots then.............. who knows

syscom your last statement is out of line and offensive and I really am tired of saying once again how many US bomber crews I have interviewed over the last 35 years............get a real clue this time please.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Erich has aquired lots of good info from actual air crews in his time researching his books and such. I would believe what he says.

 

[Udet]

Can anyone show him the guncamera shot from Willy Maximowitz´s Fw 190 A-8/R8 treating a B-17? It will be illustrative for him to discover how the 2cm and 3cm shells took the intestines out of the fortress.


Quote:

"No what ifs... Moreover, not much truth in your statement either. Why would the Ta 152 be fitted with a Mk108 30mm cannon if not for attacking bombers? As 262 pilots discovered, the Mk108 was virtually useless for engaging a maneuvering fighter. Lousy ballistics, low rate of fire make it a very poor choice."


There are many who will debate your argument. The Me 262 accounted for an interesting number of P-51´s with the lousy ballistics of its cannon.


Quote:

"suspect that the 152 would have been better suited to combating B-29s, which frequently flew up at 35k. However, the B-17s and B-24s were about 10,000 feet lower than that. "


In fact, the same path is being followed here. The Ta 152 was suited to deal with everything whatever the altitude it could fly.

Soviet Yaks -depicted as the best low altitude fighter of the war- perished in numbers against the Ta 152, indeed at very low altitude dogfights, while zero 152s were lost in such engagements.


Erich, I do not think it is accurate to affirm neither the G-6/AS or G-10 could deal with the P-51 D at high altitude. It was the very high altitude combat notion against the bomber escorts that the G-6/AS were trimmed for.

Mr. Navair suggests the Ta 152 is not a very good climber. Well, the ability of the Ta 152 and P-51 D is about identical; we can also keep in mind the P-51 D never surpassed the climbing power of the Bf 109.


Quote:

"But, that's the point... They could not avoid it. You can expect the P-47s up at 35k, the Mustangs below them. To get to the bombers you have to come down... Yet wait a minute, if you're up at 40k+ in a 152, simply pushing the nose down means getting into compressibility almost instantly. This greatly complicates things. Indeed, the 152s will need to pull off power and load the airframe to avoid excessive speed. They must drop 15,000 feet to get at the bombers. Meanwhile, the P-47Ms, with dive recovery flaps, have no worries about compressing. They merely deploy the flaps, push over and accelerate. Indeed, those 480 mph Thunderbolts will chase down the 152s in short order."

In fact: such comment is based upon a very significant "if". Where were this wonderful P-47 Ms located while the Me 262 was already shooting down numbers of heavy bombers and their escorts?

I am not sure as to the actual intention of your comments.

Most of us are fully aware the Me 262 reached service way too late to play any significant role in the outcome of the war. So what is the point?

The lousy ballistics and the poor performance of the Me 262 -as the allies depict the jet- made the first jet aces in the history of airwarfare. Not that they only used the Mk108 cannon, also the R4M air-to-air rockets vaporized some Mustangs in combat.

Furthermore, some of the German jet experten shot down more enemy planes than the bulk of the USAAF fighters aces in the ETO. A remarkable deed when one knows of the dramatic unreliability of the jet the allies describe.

I´m afraid i´m witnessing a very standard allied anomaly: to put down as much as possible the German hardware which in fact saw action and was battle proven while predicting an odd undisputable and overwhelming superiority of allied toys that did not see action against the foe.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Furthermore, some of the German jet experten shot down more enemy planes than the bulk of the USAAF fighters aces in the ETO. A remarkable deed when one knows of the dramatic unreliability of the jet the allies describe.

That could also be due to the fact that there were more allied aircraft in the air. At the same time that is quite a feat though considering they were getting kills while numericaly inferior.

 

[Erich]

most assuredly overwhelming superiority in numbers played the game in the end.

a little story, an ace pilot of Jg 302 serving on the same airfield as some friends of mine in 1944-fall while they were sleeping since they were Moskito-jagd, a day fighter pilot name Andreas /// was having a difficult time playing with P-51's at over 32,000 feet in his G-6/AS and although could boost power to over 450mph with MW 50 it was only for 10 minutes and then he and his staffeln mates were only ordered to use it for just a brief few seconds for dives and a possible jump and escape manuever.
Andreas had already given his little 109G a boost earlier by speeding down the runway as a P-51 came headon and Andreas got the best of the day. during the nosie of this particular fall day while the evening fighter pilots watched above the airfield at Jüterbog, Andreas just about pulling his landing gear up when he was jumped by two Stanags. the stangs never fired a shot but kept pressing Andreas farther and farther downward until he smashed into a small forest of trees with the 2 P-51's flying off

 

[NAVAIR]

propagating more myths I see. have you interviewed any of the JG 301 pilots of III. gruppe and Geschwader stab ? I have ! NO p-51's were ever encountered friend. Incidently a cousin of mine served in JG 301......so I'm not pooping here

NO Ta 152's were ever used in airfield defence either, Doras of III./JG 54 were and the weak 5 a/c staffel ~ Würger staffel of JV 44. JG 7 never had any airfield protection niether did the 262 bomber units.

you quote tech specs and nothing else. you do not quote bonafide pilot documentation in the engagements nor in the testing faze when III.gruppe pilots tested fully the high altitiude and dving performance of the bird on way to their airfield. I have the source docs..........

Since the G-6/AS and G-10 could not fulfill the high Altitude requirements to combat the P-51D and K the Dora was outfitted with a rewtructured Jumop to be followed closely and then fazed out by the Ta 152H and the C series although few in number were taken over by GEschwader Stab/JG 301 and used successfully agasint eh Soviets in March/April of 45.

The Mk 108 was the standard hard hitting cannon with few rounds needed and as such the twin 2cm were for hitting the US/RAF fighter at the lower range and while closeing give the coup de grace with the 3cm. Me 262's with the overpowered four 3cm weapons, pilots finding it was actually too much weaponry used at times only two Mk 108's in engageing the US heavies as well as fighters and also in the night flights against the illusive Mossies of the LSNF and the night fighter versions

In time you would have seen had the war continued TA 152 variants flying high cover for attacking jets and then with advent of more streamlined jets protecting their own selves the TA 152 and marks above it taking on the P-51's and other variable prop driven craft...

the TA was to bring the P-51 up for a tickle now at the TA's best altitudes

I haven't interviewed any Ta 152 pilots. I have interviewed dozens of surviving American fighter pilots as well as some Canadians and Brits. Indeed, I was the last writer to interview Robert Johnson prior to his death. That interview has been published. I have also worked with Warren Bodie and shared bylines with him in Flight Journal. In addition I have also been published in Air Power International with Dr. Carlo Kopp.

So you can save your feather puffing for someone who is impressed with that sort of display.

Let's see, 150 Ta 152H models rolled off the line and no production 152Cs ever flew... Sounds like far too little, far too late. And spare us the strawman argument about "if the war had continued..." It could not and did not continue and Germany was utterly crushed. While the Me 262 was a wonder, the Allies were close behind in Jet aircraft technology, especially in engines where the Germans suffered from a serious lack of reliability. Despite the 262's performance, if you can't get off and on to your airfields, they are generally worthless.

Swarms of 152s and 262s are wishful thinking. Besides, the Allies had some serious hardware in the pipeline as well. The P-47N and P-51H were available should they have been needed. To that you can add the P-47M, which was in combat service in similar numbers to the 152H. We cannot overlook the latest Meteor and the new Vampire. We shouldn't forget the P-72 Superbolt, an absolute monster set aside to develop the P-84.

Robert Muller writes in Air Power Journal:
"The idea of the Me 262 as the potentially decisive wonder weapon is one of the most enduring myths in airpower history. Hitler's oft-quoted order forbidding the employment of this aircraft as a fighter dates from May 1944, by which time no Me 262s were in service. Because design and technical faults still plagued the aircraft, its employment in any role would have to await their resolution--as would the training of a sufficient number of pilots, many of whom found it difficult to master the temperamental interceptor. It is unlikely that the jet could have appeared in combat much earlier than it did, even without Hitler's interference. The 262, although a deadly aircraft in the hands of the right pilot, remained essentially a prototype pressed into combat service. Throughout its short service life, the aircraft suffered from an abnormally high accident rate and scored only a minuscule number of combat victories."

Dr. Richard R. Muller (BA, Franklin and Marshall College; MA, PhD, Ohio State University) is a professor of military history at Air Command and Staff College, Maxwell AFB, Alabama. Specializing in the history of World War II and the development of airpower, he teaches core courses in airpower history, international security studies, the nature of war, leadership and command, and the elective course The Second World War and the Operational Art. Dr. Muller's publications include The German Air War in Russia (1992) and The Luftwaffe's Way of War: German Air Force Doctrine, 1911-1945 (with James S. Corum, 1998).

I'm sure many would debate Muller's conclusions, but they would appear as dolts in the effort.

A few years ago, several senior Engineers at Dryden compared the relative development levels of the P-80A and the Me 262 as they appeared in March 1945 and concluded that the P-80 was further along in development and offered greater potential development. Notice that no one bothered to build 262s after the war ended. Ironically, the Bf 109 remained in or re-entered production in at least two countries.

My reading on 190s indicates to me that some pilots preferred the Dora to the 152 due to better performance at low to medium altitudes. By late 1944, the air war was frequently at tree-top level over Luftwaffe airfields.

As to never meeting P-51s, what about the claim attributed to Kurt Tank that he was forced to out-run P-51s when he encountered them during a 152 flight. If true, at least one Ta 152 encountered P-51s. I suspect that it is not true. Considering the range of P-51s and their ability to follow a fighter anywhere it might fly. An example of this is Major George Ceuleers kill of a 262. Ceuleers chased the 262 for more than 100 miles, finally running it out of fuel over a Luftwaffe field. The pilot baled out. After the war Ceuleers located the German pilot. In their conversation the German stated that while he could handily out-distance the Mustang, he could not sustain that speed due to chronic over-temping of the engines, a common problem.... Had a squadron of P-51s encountered Tank in a 152, he escaped laregly because the Mustangs were not interested in chasing a single fighter. Had they decided to pursue, eventually he would run out of MW50 and be in deep bandini.

I just read a post here claiming that 262s routinely shot down P-51s..Really? Someone should tell the Air Force so they can adjust their loss records... Here's the quote: "There are many who will debate your argument. The Me 262 accounted for an interesting number of P-51´s with the lousy ballistics of its cannon."

In 1944-45, more P-51s were lost to taxiway accidents than to German jets. Moreover, I've never seen a single verified instance of a 262 shooting down a maneuvering Mustang. Oh, and neither the Yak-3 or the Yak-9U were the best low altitude fighter of the war. I would give that title to the Tempest Mk.V or perhaps the Lavochkin La-7, both of which would fly circles around (figuratively for you anal retentive types) a 152 on the deck.

Now, back to the claim of 500 mph 152s. Post some test data to support that. Personal pilot accounts are not only unreliable due to memory lapse after 60 years, but there technical issues that cannot be overlooked. Tell me, how much horsepower would the Ta 152 require to attain 500 mph in level flight. Without doing the calculation, I'd wager 700 hp more than the Jumo could generate. Where's the test data?

I know of one P-47 pilot who swears to this day that his Jug exceeded the speed of sound in a dive. He based that upon what he saw on his airspeed indicator. Despite informing him that no P-47 was ever measured at speeds in excess of Mach 0.83, he sticks by his myth. He ignores the proven effect localized transonic airflow has at the pitot tube inlet. Airspeed indicators of the era were wildly inaccurate at high speed and high altitude.

Personally, I believe that Dora was a heck of fighter and far more useful than the 152H. No one is arguing that the 152 was not a tremendous fighter. However, the Allies had several aircraft fully able to match it. Just as the P-47 was not a very effective fighter down low, the 152 would suffer similar limitations. By the time a pitifully small amount of 152s were flight ready, the air war was already long past winning. Even if the Good Fairy had replaced every 190 and 109 with Ta 152s, the outcome would have been the same.

My regards,

NAVAIR

 

[NAVAIR]

Udet, whatever we may agree or disagree on, I must state that your sigline ("In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong") is hysterically funny.

My regards,

NAVAIR