Interceptor vs Escort.

KraziKanuK · Sep 11, 2005

Jabber,

The problem is your source. Isegrim/Kurfurst is not a realiable source. He twists and manipulates data to suit his German is superior agenda. He will pick and chose what supports his agenda and ignore any info that contradicts.

If you go to his web site you will find '12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata' that he also has 'III./JG 27 Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs'. So which is it.

Also, it says increase to, not increase with, as in they will be using 1.98, not as they are using 1.98.

There is also the problem with the quality of very late war German aero engines.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 12, 2005

GregP said:
It could NEVER fight at such a speed. The airframe simply wasn't designed for those speeds.

Sure but what aircraft actually would dogfight at 452mph. Not that many. You slow down to about the 350 mph range. You would use the faster speed to get away from you enemy.

GregP said:
The Bf 109 was basically a 350 - 375 mph aircraft with a good angle of climb at low airspeeds, and a decent punch via a hub-mounted cannon. It was devently maneuverable, but not as maneuverable as the Spitfire (which had a similar short range) and not as maneuverable as the Mustang.

I agree somewhat you are saying. The 109 was not as maneuverable as the Spitfire but I would go as to say the Mustang is more maneuverable at high speeds over 400 but at around the 350 range I would not go as far as to say that the Mustang was much more maneuverable than the 109.

GregP said:
The run-of-the-mill Luftwaffe pilot of 1945, flying a Bf 109K-43, wasn't an expert and was lucky to escape the numerous Mustangs roving around in German airspace in packs.

This I can agree with fully.

Jabberwocky · Sep 12, 2005

GregP said:
The Bf 109 was basically a 350 - 375 mph aircraft with a good angle of climb at low airspeeds, and a decent punch via a hub-mounted cannon. It was devently maneuverable, but not as maneuverable as the Spitfire (which had a similar short range) and not as maneuverable as the Mustang.

By the end of the war Spitfires had actually increased their range significantly over earlier marks.

The Spitfire Mk I had 85 imp gal in fuselage tanks

The Spitfire Mk V had 85 imp gal in fuselage tanks plus the ability to carry 30, 90 or 170 imp gal in a single large slipper tank. An additional 29 imp gal could also be carried in a rear fuserlage tank for ferry flights

The Spitfire Mk VII and Mk VIII had 122 imp gal internally, plus 30, 90 or 170 imp gal drop tanks.

The Spitfire IX/XVI initially had 85 imp gal. Later production saw that increase to either 118 or 126 imp gal,less with the bubbletop models, with some production runs also getting 36 gal wing leading edge tanks. Late production models could have up to 162 imp gal internal tankage, and either a 30, 45 or 90 gallon droptank. This gave the late war Mk IXs around 4 1/2 hours endurance, not too bad for a fighter that started with an endurance of around 90 minutes.

NAVAIR · Sep 12, 2005

Simply stated, any maneuvering at speeds above corner velocity will be limited by G loading. By late 1944, American fighter pilots were being issued the Berger G3 anti-G suits and their fighters were being modified to use them. In short, the P-51/P-47 pilot was able to pull more G than the Bf 109 pilot. That was a significant and telling advantage in a high-speed fight.

My regards,

NAVAIR

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 13, 2005

NAVAIR said:
Simply stated, any maneuvering at speeds above corner velocity will be limited by G loading. By late 1944, American fighter pilots were being issued the Berger G3 anti-G suits and their fighters were being modified to use them. In short, the P-51/P-47 pilot was able to pull more G than the Bf 109 pilot. That was a significant and telling advantage in a high-speed fight.

My regards,

NAVAIR

Yes you are correct and I believe that was the only real advantage other than range (which was not really a real advantage when the 109's were having ot fight on there own turf) that the P-51 had over the 109/190s of the Luftwaffe.

KraziKanuK · Sep 13, 2005

The P-51 should have been fitted with reclined seats like the 109 and 190 had. It then would have been a UFO.

syscom3 · Sep 13, 2005

Range (endurance) is very important. I think its what made the Mustang superior. The Mustangs could loiter way above the German airfields and wait for them to takeoff. Then pounce on them. Even if the -109's maneuvered out of the way, the formations would be disrupted and precious fuel would be consumed.

Im just curious, is the stated endurance for the -109 reflective of a full throttle climb to altitude?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 13, 2005

What was the max endurance for a P-51 once it reached its loiter area over Germany? That has me curious. I know the range in miles or kilometers but what is it in hours, and not flight time but flight time over the target before it had to make its return trip.

syscom3 · Sep 13, 2005

Heres one figure for the "D" Mustang
Combat range with drop tanks is 2055 miles @ 280 MPH/20,000 ft.
That gives an endurance of 7.3 hours.

Combat range without drop tanks is 1155 miles @ 295 MPH/20,000 ft.
That gives an endurance of 3.9 Hours.

Considering that the Distance from London to Berlin is only 580 miles, the P51D had to have quite some loiter time. (Misison profile would be Fly in with drop tanks, loiter for awhile and return home on internal fuel)

If someone has another figure, please let me know.

Erich · Sep 13, 2005

hmmmmmmmmm take in consideration of atmosphere; wind ` resistance. the P-51 units did not loiter over the German airfields as it was usually an attack set up by the squadron commander and done by 2's and 3's but maybe this is what you meant syscom ? anything of value to the German war effort was shot up so the "loiter" may indicate the selection of MT cross roads and associated vehicles and numerous airfields, the drop tanks would of been deleted before the ground attacks naturally..

proof even Prague-Rusin airfields were attacked housing KG 54 ? and JG 7 jet units as well as Ju 88G-6's of NJG 100, so the Mustangs definately had a great overall range

wmaxt · Sep 13, 2005

syscom3 said:
Heres one figure for the "D" Mustang
Combat range with drop tanks is 2055 miles @ 280 MPH/20,000 ft.
That gives an endurance of 7.3 hours.

Combat range without drop tanks is 1155 miles @ 295 MPH/20,000 ft.
That gives an endurance of 3.9 Hours.

Considering that the Distance from London to Berlin is only 580 miles, the P51D had to have quite some loiter time. (Misison profile would be Fly in with drop tanks, loiter for awhile and return home on internal fuel)

If someone has another figure, please let me know.

Those numbers are close enough. Info I got from a couple of P-51 pilots was that they tried to run about 55 gph in cruise. Remember METO throttle was 97 gph and WEP was even more which cuts your time drasticaly. High throttle situations were also on internal fuel which was about 240 gal max usable. Combat radius charts in the ETO generaly list the P-51D, with drop tanks, at 650mi to allow climb, cruise, combat and return. In the Pacific where enemy contact is likely only over the target, ranges of 850mi radius are sometimes used.

As someone pointed out loitering was rarely used mission profiles were more like this. Form up, climb out, link up with the proper bomber box, escort to relief point, decend to 10,000ft (or below cloud level) for the return and attack any targets of opertunity.

wmaxt

syscom3 · Sep 13, 2005

I was just figuring out a hypothertical scenario where the P51's would just fly over to where the German Airfields were and just loiter, waiting for the -109's and -190's to take off, and then pounce on them. If it means only to just mess up their formations and make them waste precious time and fuel, then thats just as good. They might not have the time or fuel to make an effective intercept.

Perhaps they could even have an escort of their own till on station, so they could use the drop tanks to best effect.

It looks like the P51's could simply out wait them.

Erich · Sep 13, 2005

remember during late 44 and all of 45, German piston jobs were warned by airfield ground control to take another airfield after intercpets of heavy bombers as Mustangs were lurking over the fields. It's a very safe bet this of course altered the course of a second attack, but the Mustangs could not be everywhere at once and there were many small airfields of which the German props could land. the one thing that stands out is the way the 262's were hunted down whether on take off or landing, these jet units just didn't seem to be thinking pushing the boys to the limit

syscom3 · Sep 13, 2005

Good points.

Im curious though how many German fighter groups couldnt get into the air cause there were so many allied fighters in the air lurking around, it would have been suicidal. Or, there was a fighter bomber stike that hit the field at just the right time and holed the airfield.

lesofprimus · Sep 13, 2005

Usually the Luftwaffe pilots were already up in the air prior to the Allied fighter sweeps, atleast those that had the fuel to get into the air...

Erich · Sep 14, 2005

Italked with several German pilots about this syscom.....and I am paraphrasing this so to speak. the German radar/ground units were very powerful and indeed even in within Germany could pick up signals and I know this is not the right word but i will use it just the same from the US heavies as well as the US fighters all over England. Once in the air the Luftwaffe ground control gave numbered estimates of the opposition to the fighter gruppen to get airborne to confront the US air forces, so all available fighters ~ prop and jet were then ushered into the air to meet the onslaught.

what was taken out on the ground were already damaged, salvaged fighters and towards wars end fighters without fuel causing gapping holes in the fuselages of the German Luftwaffe single engines but no fires...a bit frustrating for P-47/P-51 pilots

evangilder · Sep 14, 2005

I have actually seen some ground strafing gun cam films with the scenario. They are shooting away and you see them walk the bullets right on up to the airplane and there is no fire or explosion. My first thought was that they were decoys. Then one of the other guys brought up what you are saying..no fuel to burn or explode.

syscom3 · Sep 14, 2005

The German radar and ground control was excellent. But if the -109 only had 50 minutes of fuel, it only had a limited window of opportunity to get up to altitude and intercept. I would figure almost 20 minutes of the endurance would just be to get up to 30,000 feet and have enough fuel to get down. Thats where my hypothesis starts, that some of the airfields could get blanketed so nothing leaves the ground without being intercepted. Of course not all the fields can get covered, but if a few groups are held down, and cant form up to intercept, then thats a couple of groups not doing any damage.

Just "conjecture/what if" on my part.

Jabberwocky · Sep 14, 2005

syscom3 said:
The German radar and ground control was excellent. But if the -109 only had 50 minutes of fuel, it only had a limited window of opportunity to get up to altitude and intercept. I would figure almost 20 minutes of the endurance would just be to get up to 30,000 feet and have enough fuel to get down. Thats where my hypothesis starts, that some of the airfields could get blanketed so nothing leaves the ground without being intercepted. Of course not all the fields can get covered, but if a few groups are held down, and cant form up to intercept, then thats a couple of groups not doing any damage.

Just "conjecture/what if" on my part.

Is that 50 minutes on internal fuel only or including drop tanks? It seems to me that with a single large drop tank a 109 could extend that time by at least 50%, even if they burnt the drop tank fuel just in the takeoff and climb peirod.

Even for a short legged interceptor like the 109, 50 minutes seems really limited.

plan_D · Sep 14, 2005

I'm in the understanding that Allied aircraft loitered over the battlefield in support of the ground forces. The ground forces would call in air support and the aircraft would be there in a matter of minutes. This would be done by the RAF and USAAF.

Of course, in the escort mission profiles it would be different. The escorts would only drop down after finishing the mission at hand.

Interceptor vs Escort.

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