INVESTIGATION: Need Help

[Njaco]

Over on Facebook I came across a guy who claims he just bought Hartmann's Bf 109 along with a P-38. He made the claim that Hartmann flew over Belgium, etc. I asked him some questions and checked his FB page where he is claiming he bought these aircraft along with going after a Bf 109K.

Anybody know anymore about this?


This is the pic he posted which looks like its from Evergreen Aviation Space Museum, McMinnville, OR,

. here is the FB page...His name is Steven Brewer.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/126073580757532/868669186497964/?notif_t=group_comment

 

[Crimea_River]

I'd have to check my facts but off the top of my head I'm not aware of Hartmann flying any 109s over Belgium. All in the east. Sounds pretty fishy.

 

[GrauGeist]

I didn't think that there any surviving Bf109K examples left...

Wait...and this clown says that Hartmann flew over Belgium?

This guy is 100% full of sh!t...Hartmann was purely Ost-front; Jg52 his entire service. The closest he ever got to Belgium during combat ops would have been Czechslovakia

 

[herman1rg]

Having looked online an early victory was a Boston. in Russian service?

 

[Njaco]

And I just called Evergreen Aviation and Space museum who state the G-10 is not for sale and won't be.

$4.5 million my azz.

and is there any P-38s for sale?

 

[tomo pauk]

That dude will not have some Spitfires still in crates, by any chance? A nifty Mk.VIII for me.

 

[Crimea_River]

He went straight east from training. It was a Russian Boston I believe.

...Hartmann was purely Ost-front; Jg52 his entire service.

Nope. Brief stint as commander of I/JG53. Also trained on 262's before returning to JG52.

 

[Njaco]

Ok, just got a PM from his friend.

Hi Chris
Yes! Steven has put his money where his mouth is I believe, he also has an invested interest in the P38 in the same museum.....one can only assume that Steven is genuine, he is very knowledgeable and he keeps me updated with a pretty good amount of up front info.....we both have a passion for Erich Hartmann History and this is why he wants the Gustav as it was his last fighter over Belgium....he has purchased his thermal flying suit for the P38 flight which will happen during January, but the Gustav still requires some work before it gets its papers. I think it would be unfair for anyone who has sealed a deal on this aircraft to release any facts to signify its purchase...tongues will wag and this will induce propagandists to antagonize the museum which is how it goes these days....
People are always looking for that bit of first news.....but it is not available to the likes of myself....

I dunno............................

 

[stona]

Anyway the aircraft was never flown by Hartmann. In fact it was probably never flown in service by a German.

I believe it is currently fitted with later wings from a Buchon.

Painting a dubious 'restoration' to look a bit like one of Hartmann's aircraft hardly makes it his

The entire story is BS.

Cheers

Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

He went straight east from training. It was a Russian Boston I believe.



Nope. Brief stint as commander of I/JG53. Also trained on 262's before returning to JG52.

lol...yes, there was that...a 14 day assignment (February 1945). However, Jg53 was certainly eastern front at that point in time.

As far as the Me262, he attended the conversion program meeting, but declined Galland's request to transfer to Jv44 (this would have been in March '45) and was back in combat by April '45 as Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 52.

As far as Belgium goes, I cannot see any reference whatsoever where he would have been that far west, either active or even on rest leave.

 

[Njaco]

yup, I./JG 53 was also Ostfront.

Here is the convo I am having with his friend......

from friend.....I have some records in the post which I am waiting for.....hopefully will conclude if Hartmann ever did operate off the Belgium border....it wasn't his usual hunting ground. We will see!

and me....

Ok thanks. That would be very interesting. As far as Mr. Brewer, I can't 'assume' genuine. The P-38 he is gearing to fly is a static display and if things were hush-hush as you say, I don't understand posting this on Facebook of all places? But like my mom used to say, "It will all come out in the wash." Thanks again.

 

[GrauGeist]

Just looked into the guy's profile and I see where a person asked him if he's purchasing the Messerschmitt Bf109G-10 of Evergreen's collection and he states that he is.

That Bf109 of theirs, if I'm not mistaken, is a former Bf109 of the Royal Bulgarian Airforce (RBAF) and is not an aircraft that Hartmann flew.

 

[Njaco]

Yup and when I asked him about it he just sent me a vicious PM that I won't print here. I just posted a request on that page.

 

[Njaco]

Platinum fighters does have the P-38L listed as for sale for $6.7 million.

He claimed that Evergreen doesn't own the 109 yet the FAA registration lists only Evergreen as owner with no fractional owners.

 

[GrauGeist]

I see a person said that it's former Romanian, which is incorrect. It's former Bulgarian and later saw service in a Yugoslavian unit.

 

[GrauGeist]

A little info on Evergreen's 109:

Building licensed 109s since 1937 was the Erla Machinenwerk GmbH of Leipzig, where a few G-10 models originated.

This 109G (serial number 610937) is thought to have been built in 1944 and went almost immediately to Bulgaria. The Bulgarian Air Force began flying 109s with receipt of Emils in 1940, but almost nothing is known of this Gustav's wartime service.

In 1947, the 109 was acquired by the Yugoslav Air Force and later retired in the last half of 1950. It spent its remaining time in a trade school where students worked on it as an instruction platform.

Spending a few years in a semi-assembled state, the fighter exchanged hands a few times due to lack of funds for a complete rebuild.

Evergreen Aviation bought this 109 and another airframe in 1989, and in 1991 it began restoration over a five-year period.

The Evergreen Gustav is painted in German ace Erich Hartmann's colors who flew over 800 sorties and is credited with 352 victories. Hartmann shot down more LaGG fighters than other types of Soviet aircraft. He survived the war but spent 10 years in Soviet captivity before being released in 1955.

 

[GrauGeist]

More info on thier 109:

The following brief history of this airframe has kindly been provided by Richard Corey (via Dave McDonald).

Messerschmitt 109G-10 / U4 W.Nr.610937

Built in 1944 by WNF most likely as a G-14 , but upgraded to a G-10/U4 'Jabo-Rei' in December 1944. Abandoned at Zeltweg airfield in Austria at the end of the war , her original tactical markings will probably never be known. She could have been from a Luftwaffe unit or just as likely a Hungarian one , as both countries were using this airfield at the time.

Between May and August 1945, 610937 and many other aircraft were taken as trophies by units from the 6th Polk, (regiment) of the Bulgarian Air Force and ferried to Bulgaria , via Pech airfield , Hungary and Belgrade , Yugoslavia. Little is is known about the service history of these Bulgarian Me-109s. Many were transferred from the Karlovo airfield to the Burshen airfield near Silven and were actively flown by the 2nd and 3rd Orlyak (group) of the 6th Polk until they converted to Yak-9. Some 109s went on to serve in the training role as late as 1950, with the last of them being scrapped in 1951.

In 1947, the Paris Peace Treaty limited the size of Bulgaria's Air Force and some of its excess aircraft were sent to Yugoslavia in military equipment trade negotiations between the two countries. 610937 became part of a shipment of 59 Me109s to be traded for a number of fuselages and tail units of Il-2 Sturmoviks. After being transported to Zagreb by rail, the aircraft were refurbished, repainted and 610937 became "White 44", Yugoslav Air Force s/n 9644. White 44 was flown by either the 83rd or 172nd fighter wing based at Cerklje Airfield and may have been flown on patrol sorties along the Italian frontier during the confrontation between Yugoslavia and Italy over the free zone of Trieste. White 44's last recorded flight was October 17, 1950. Total flight time in service: 35 hrs.15 mins.

The aircraft was placed in storage until 1953, when it was declared scrapped and donated to a technical school known as the 'Machine Facility ' in Belgrade. Then used as an instructional airframe until 1979 , after which time she was transferred to the Yugoslav Aviation Museum in Belgrade , being placed in storage. In the early eighties the museum was struggling to pay the heating bill , and since a fully restored G-2 was already on display , a deal was struck which saw her being purchased for Doug Arnold's Warbirds of Great Britain Collection.

In 1989 she was resold to Evergreen Ventures and in 1991 sent to Vintage Aircraft Restorations Ltd. at Ft. Collins, Colorado where , after 5 years , she was restored to flight worthy condition . It is thought that the aircraft is fitted with wings from a Buchon , obtained from Dave Tallichet. Unfortunately little thought was given to the history of the aircraft with no attempt made to research the markings that may have been hidden under the Bulgarian and Yugoslavian AF paint . The skins were replaced and sent directly to the scrap yard in order to make her 'structurally sound ' for flight , something that has never been attempted , and at this time , seems unlikely to be. She was painted to represent an aircraft flown by Germany's leading ace, Eric Hartman and is on display in preserved condition (fluids drained) at the Captain Michael King Smith Evergreen Aviation Educational Institute in McMinnville, Oregon.

Note the wheels and wheel wells appear to be Buchon wheels and wings. Sad...

 

[Njaco]

He said he wasn't dealing with Evergreen but the true owners of the G-10. EXCEPT the FAA records say something else including NO Fractional owners.

FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry

 

[GrauGeist]

Yeah, he's full of sh!t...

It's been owned by Evergreen since the late 80's and certainly the FAA would know better than anyone.

But you notice in that thread at FB, the 5th post down, where he posted the Evergreen photo, he sates: "Erich "Bubi" Hartmann 109 G that he flew missions over Belgium in ."

Which is wrong all across the board. That particular Bf109 was built at Erla and went straight to Bulgaria. Hartmann never flew the plane, it wasn't even in German service. It was operated in the Balkans during it's service career and most likely never saw any other areas of Europe...ever. There is a strong possibility that Hartmann has never even laid eyes on it in his lifetime.

So again, this person is entirely and completely full of sh!t...

 

[Milosh]

That particular Bf109 was built at Erla

Messerschmitt 109G-10 / U4 W.Nr.610937

Built in 1944 by WNF

That WNr is a WNF number.

The guy who says he is buying the a/c has a VERY big shovel.

You are not the only one B-G.