Italian Ace and rumors

[Hunter368]

When it goes to war I don't think that you can name someone coward anyways. One might not do a heroic act but it sure tha he'll be more courageous and brave than when in peaceful times. After all it is a matter of life and death.
Finally I don't think I can judge of one's act on a situation I have never been myself.

Wise words. Nicely put.

 

[Jank]

Magister, I hav that book. I read that passage last night. Must have been interesting fighting the germans and eyeties in the same engagment.

 

[Parmigiano]

Probably the best english recent book about the pilots of Regia is 1998 Chris Dunning's 'Courage Alone' (.. the name says everything) , Hikoki Pubblications.

Unfortunately it seems out of print, Amazon wants $500 for a copy!

 

[Twitch]

I have a list of all the victories scored by Italians in WW2, not just aces. It's probably too long to post here but I'll email it to anyone who wants it.

My talks with American aces regarding the Italians was generally not with too much praise. As one put it quite matter-of-factly, "They'd come out and show off doing aerobatics and we'd shoot then down." Shrug.

That's not to say there weren't some pilots that excelled.

 

[Parmigiano]

Very macho statement, but from the other side the bell rings differently...

From an interview to italian ace Luigi Gorrini:

"Cimicchi, medaglia d'oro dell'aeronautica del sud, mi disse:"Gigi, io ero al sud, ma con il cuore stavo con voi e con me tanti altri! Voi non sapete veramente quanti aeroplani avete abbattuto: io li contavo quando partivano e li contavo al ritorno, lavoravo con un maggiore che comandava un gruppo di Lighting. Quando si trattava di andare contro i Tedeschi passava, ma quando sapevano che vi avrebbero incontrato, molti tiravano dietro il sedere sulla sedia...Ci credevano belve, persone disposte a tutto.. "

"Cimicchi, a gold medal of South Air Force, told me 'Luigi, I was in the south but my heart was with you guys. You don't even know how many airplanes you have shot down: I was counting them at take off and I was counting them when they returned, I was woking with a major who was commanding a Lightning group. When they had to fly against the German was ok, but when they knew they would had meet you many were shivering on their seats. They believed you were beast, ready for anything "

Also, according to their records, the Italian aviation of RSI (those who decided to continue to fight for Mussolini, the only Italian pilots who could fly decent material) shoot down in action 262 Allied aircraft with the loss of 158.
Not bad, considering that the operations were in 1944 and 45, when the overwhelming numerical and logistic superiority of the Allies was well established.

The point is that, with all my respect for people who fought a war, what veterans say cannot be taken for granted (whatever side they are), there are too many examples of 'too personal' view of the facts. Understandable and probably honest, but not enough valid to be considered 'historical fact'

 

[Magister]

From my earlier post concerning the bravery of Itralian Pilots, here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace"

With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

From my earlier post concerning the bravery of Itralian Pilots, here is a quote from George Buerling from a book by Miles Constable entitled "George Beurling, Canadian Ace"

With 32 confirmed planes shot down, George Beurling was one of the top Allied aces of WWII.

"The Eyeties are comparatively easy to shoot down. Oh, they're brave enough. In fact, I think the Eyeties have more courage than the Germans, but their tactics aren't so good. They are very good gliders, but they try to do clever acrobatics and looping. But they will stick with it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run."

Beurling was one of the best but you're citing a madman, he was basically a nut!!!

 

[Magister]

He literally had no fear. That doesn't make his opinions on Italian pilots any less valid.

 

[Dogwalker]

It's rare to read of some WWII pilot who admire his adversary tactics. The same scarce consideration that US pilots showed for "italian aerobatics" italian pilots showed for the "yo-yo tactics".
Is natural that someone (especially someone who has far proved his ability) believe that his beaviour is the best and, as a matter of fact, we can read only the reports of those who survived to say this.

However, excellent pilots or not, The two groups of fighter of ANR (the northern aviation after 8 september 1943) scored a kill/loss ratio of about 2,5/1 that, with regards to the conditions in which they had to operate, can be considered quite decent.

DogW

 

[FLYBOYJ]

He literally had no fear. That doesn't make his opinions on Italian pilots any less valid.

No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems."

If you don't have fear in combat, you have a big problem!!!!

 

[pbfoot]

I don't think Beurling was a nut as much as he marched to different drummer I believe he detested the limelight and made his speech in Montreal as a way to get off the bond tour and back into combat according to a 1943 Readers Digest article most pilots in Malta flew one day and were off the next Beurling flew everyday he trained relentlessly to become a pilot and developed his skills as such but he was a private person and teetotaler unlike 99.9999% of pilots and with the average age of the guys he served with this probably greatly enhanced his loner reputation as he did not take part in the after duty "celebrations" yes he was a bit of a nutter but every fighter pilot I've ever met was a bit off the wall as well
.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Let's fact it, he's not the type of pilot you would of had patrolling performing UN peacekeeping missions, that my point. Great pilot fearless warrior, not a leadership candidate and not one, in the post war years you would trust lets say with an atomic bomb for example....

 

[Twitch]

I never meant to insinuate that Italian pilots were not good. Obviously many were. Any successful combat pilot is one thing- aggressive. being skilled at flying is a small portion of the equation. 5% of all US pilots became aces and accounted for 90%+ of the kills scored. Something near those percentages is about right for every country. The pilots I talked to that flew the Med simply did not encounter any superb Italian aces during their sorties. Sure doesn't mean they weren't out there.

 

[Magister]

"No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems."

With 32 confirmed kills, I will take his "critique" of any enemy.

Where do you get the "he was only in combat for two weeks"? The book I have and various poaces on-line indicate more thsan two months not weeks. In that period of time, he flew countless sorties against both Germans and Italians in the same theatre of operations for an apples to apples comparison.

"Let's fact it, he's not the type of pilot you would of had patrolling performing UN peacekeeping missions, that my point."

That may be so but how does that relate to his inability to understand whether his adversaries are brave or checken-sh*ts?

His commanding officer in Malta, Stanley Grant:

""Beurling was untidy, with a shock of fair, touseled hair above penetrating blue eyes. He smiled a lot and the smile came straight out of those striking eyes. His sallow complexion was in keeping with his part Scandinavian ancestry. He was high strung, brash and outspoken. He was a rebel, yes; but I suspected that his rebelliousness came from some mistaken feeling of inferiority. I judged that what Beurling needed most was not to be smacked down but to be encouraged. His ego mattered very much to him, and from what he told me of his treatment in England, a deliberate attempt had been made to assassinate it. I made him a promise that I would give him my trust and that if he abused it he would be on the next aircraft out of Malta. When I said all this those startling blue eyes peered incredulously at me as if to say that, after all his past experience of human relations, he didn't believe it. He was soon to find out that a basis for confidence and mutual trust did exist. He never once let me down."

 

[Dogwalker]

I never meant to insinuate that Italian pilots were not good. Obviously many were. Any successful combat pilot is one thing- aggressive. being skilled at flying is a small portion of the equation. 5% of all US pilots became aces and accounted for 90%+ of the kills scored. Something near those percentages is about right for every country. The pilots I talked to that flew the Med simply did not encounter any superb Italian aces during their sorties. Sure doesn't mean they weren't out there.

The funny thing is that's probable they encounter some.
Misrecognition was the norm in WWII. In Italian and German pilot's reports, every allied monoplane, inline engined, fighter (especially Hurricanes and P-40, but P-39 too) become a "Spitfire", and, in allied pilot's reports, every axis monoplane, inline engined, fighter (especially Macchi's) become a "Messerschmitt".
Reading reports of British pilots over north-africa, it seems that they never encountered a C-202. Confronting them with axis reports, the misrecognition become evident.
The problem became even more present when Italians and Germans began to operate in mixed formations, and even more when, after 8 september 1943, ANR pilots began to fly with Bf-109G.
So, when an allied pilot talk of differences between Italian and German pilots, in negative or positive terms, the first question I think, is if he really has been able to distinguish them, even when italians didn't fly with CR-42.

DogW

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"No but he's the same guy who described blowing up a guys brains in sickening detail in front of a civilian audience in Montreal, and he was only in combat for 2 weeks (Malta). Although a great fighter pilot, I would question his ability to give any credible critique of his opponent, especially since it seemed he did have "problems."

With 32 confirmed kills, I will take his "critique" of any enemy.

Where do you get the "he was only in combat for two weeks"? The book I have and various poaces on-line indicate more thsan two months not weeks. In that period of time, he flew countless sorties against both Germans and Italians in the same theatre of operations for an apples to apples comparison.

My mistake, 3 1/2 months, that was his time over Malta, he scored most of his victories within a 2 week period, July 1942. He went on the briefly would fly in Europe and "In April 1944 he returned to Canada. However, no suitable task could be found for him here, and on October 16, 1944 he was allowed to retire. It seems that his superiors were unable to come to terms with his maverick nature, and his departure was a regrettable waste of his obvious talents. "

"Let's fact it, he's not the type of pilot you would of had patrolling performing UN peacekeeping missions, that my point."

That may be so but how does that relate to his inability to understand whether his adversaries are brave or checken-sh*ts?

His commanding officer in Malta, Stanley Grant:

""Beurling was untidy, with a shock of fair, touseled hair above penetrating blue eyes. He smiled a lot and the smile came straight out of those striking eyes. His sallow complexion was in keeping with his part Scandinavian ancestry. He was high strung, brash and outspoken. He was a rebel, yes; but I suspected that his rebelliousness came from some mistaken feeling of inferiority. I judged that what Beurling needed most was not to be smacked down but to be encouraged. His ego mattered very much to him, and from what he told me of his treatment in England, a deliberate attempt had been made to assassinate it. I made him a promise that I would give him my trust and that if he abused it he would be on the next aircraft out of Malta. When I said all this those startling blue eyes peered incredulously at me as if to say that, after all his past experience of human relations, he didn't believe it. He was soon to find out that a basis for confidence and mutual trust did exist. He never once let me down."

It's real simple, this guy had some problems, brave as hell and a great pilot, he would not be the most suitable individual to gain accurate intelligence or to be placed in a command leadership role since he had no regard for his own safety and relentlessly attacked his enemy, any enemy.....

I met one of his armorers when I lived in Canada - he said basically the guy was a nut and during the July 1943 period when he was on a tear, his plane was continually shot to hell.

Bottom line here, how can you consider an accurate critique from a guy who invented his own uniform, continually engaged in dangerous flying stunts in front of his superiors, and who's favorite pass time while on Malta was stomping on flies...

I take his critique of Italian pilots with a grain of salt...

 

[pbfoot]

No he was not commander material he did not want promotion from the ranks in fact it was forced on him prefered the company of the groundcrew which in RAF was frowned upon and I don't think it was flies he stomped on but lizards he shot with a pistol which he said helped in his aerial gunnery
his armourer must have been a happy guy since Beurling did all the maintainence and harmonization of his own weapons he was not a Tommy Maguire type ace . I would like to know how he faired when he was posted to Aerial Gunnery School with other "Top Guns" of the time

 

[FLYBOYJ]

No he was not commander material he did not want promotion from the ranks in fact it was forced on him prefered the company of the groundcrew which in RAF was frowned upon and I don't think it was flies he stomped on but lizards he shot with a pistol which he said helped in his aerial gunnery
his armourer must have been a happy guy since Beurling did all the maintainence and harmonization of his own weapons he was not a Tommy Maguire type ace . I would like to know how he faired when he was posted to Aerial Gunnery School with other "Top Guns" of the time

Yep - this guy I met did say that, he was very "hands on" with his aircraft and actually seemed to enjoy working on his own aircraft.

I know he wanted to remain an NCO - I did hear about the lizzards...

 

[Magister]

"Bottom line here, how can you consider an accurate critique from a guy who invented his own uniform, continually engaged in dangerous flying stunts in front of his superiors, and who's favorite pass time while on Malta was stomping on flies..."

Let's see. Invented a uniform, continuously engaged in highy risky endeavors... By your standard, it sounds like George Patton couldn't be trusted in assessing Rommel or Montgomery huh?

There is no reason to believe that his risk tolerance level, dislike for adhering to authority or inane past time activities (shooting lizards with a pistol) on a sh-t forsaken base with nothing to do renders him a liar or with insufficient mental capacity to form credible opinions in an area where he is widely accredited as a noted authority (air combat against Italians and Germans).

If he really is such an incapacitated loon, there would be lots of patently ridiculous statements floating around for all to read. He gave many interviews during and after the war. Why would such lunacy be restricted to that one statement?

 

[pbfoot]

heres alittle audio clip of a Beurling interview 6 mins long from 43 he sounds a little stiff or uncomfortable
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-177-990-10/conflict_war/buzz_beurling/