Japan and the Soviet Union

[Colin1]

OK
I was wondering if you meant 'over head' like a shelter. We used alot of Norwegian kit, one was a diamond-shaped canvas with aluminium studs all around the perimeter. We'd have one each and they could be buttoned together to make a shelter. This usually necessitated taking mittens off and I don't know if you've ever tried forcing aluminium through stiff canvas with your bare hands in minus temperatures...

Sections tried keeping them buttoned together for this reason and giving it to one man to carry, while they carried other kit of his to make room in his bergen - bloody heavy, esp if its got an accumulation of snow/frost on it.

 

[Juha]

Hello Colin
Winters are or at least were much harder here, the effect of Golf stream is clearly weaker here, so we had ½ platoon tents and iron stove system. On our guerrilla warfare training, we skied nights and rested days if we had not some special duties to do, for ex attack on enemy supply vehicles, we had the regular stove replaced by a sheet metal one. Now we not exactly waited our tent carrying turn. It wasn't so easy to go downhill with so much extra weight on your back and in dark. Not that uphill climbing was easy but it only was hard. Once the man front of me hit a tree on rather steep slope, he was just too tired to turn in time in slight curve, thinks happened fast in dark and at fairly fast speed. He was carrying the stove and the pipe so it was rather noisy. Fortunately he was not badly hurt not enough even for a pass to first aid station.

Juha

ADDUM: Now after sleeping over it it might well have been that during guerilla training our tent was a smaller 10 man guerilla tent with the above mentioned sheet metal stove

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have removed certain posts from this thread that were about Stalingrad and not Japan vs. Russia. If you wish to continue to discuss that topic, you may do so here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww...ange-name-when-i-find-one-suitable-19573.html

 

[renrich]

Since I was the one who started this discussion, I don't recall that having Japan continuing to invade China was part of the scenario. I said that the Japanese would only attack the British in China(Hong Kong) and Malaya and the Dutch in the East Indies and not the US at PH. If they decided to launch an offensive against the Soviets to help their allies, Germany and Italy, they might very well have discontinued any advances in China or even pulled back from that country. I am not aware of any intention of the FDR administration to go to war with the Axis in 1942. That would be subject to the will of Congress and the people of the US. There was a great deal of anti war sentiment in the US at that time and it is not a foregone conclusion that FDR could have obtained the support needed to go to war without provacation against Germany or Japan, especially since Hitler showed no inclination to invade Britain. The fact is that Japan did the world and especially Britain a favor when it attacked PH. America became aroused and energised and was ready for war. If Hitler and the leaders of Japan had been more rational, they possibly could have achieved their war aims. Japan could have held it's gains in China and conquered most of Southeast Asia including Australia with all the natural resources included. Hitler could have have ceased submarine warfare against Britain,and negotiated a truce with that country, maintained his gains in Europe and subjugated Russia. Course, if Hitler and Tojo, et al, had been rational, they would probably have not started the war at all.

 

[Juha]

Being one who has got a forest fighting training I'll like to make a couple points. Firstly it was it's own kind of war, rather different to fighting in more open environment. Soviet troops in Siberia were good in it, Japanese, more difficult to say but they could not have been too bad as shown in SE Asia jungle fighting. Because of short ranges and full of unexpected situations submachine guns were ideal of that kind of war, in that Soviets were better equipped. For arty, howitzers suited better and arty needed many fire control teams. Not that 76mm cannon was totally unsuited Finnish army's main gun was Russian 76mm field gun Model 02, but only because we had got many of them in 1918 from Russian army. Plans were to replace it by a 105mm howitzer but the war intervened. Bigger calibre shell were a plus, especially when winter came, because of deep snow weaken the effects of shell fire. One also needed fuzes suited to sub zero temperatures, Soviet had those. Also their numerous mortars were effective in that kind of war. During winter time ability to ski is crucial for mobility.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Renrich
FDR's action in Atlantic, US taking over escort further and further to east and destroyers giving help to RN in convoy escort missions had already led to some indicences. At least one DD was sunk while an another was badly dam while helping a RN/RCN escort during a night time convoy battle.

In Pac at least Halsey seems to have been ready to attack Jap ships on lightest pretext. So after a naval battle between IJN and US I doubt that Congress would say, oh sh*t happened. Of course at least in late 60s you would have had a full pol debate on US agressiveness against Japan

Juha

 

[Juha]

On Japanese withdrawling from China, not likely. Their leaders had thought that unacceptable and had chosen to risk everything instead and attack PH and SE Asia. The fuel embargo had left to them only two choices, either withdraw from China or attack US which was the force behind the embargo. They saw China market essential for their economy. That's why they attack China in first place.

Juha

 

[Freebird]

Since I was the one who started this discussion, I don't recall that having Japan continuing to invade China was part of the scenario. I said that the Japanese would only attack the British in China(Hong Kong) and Malaya and the Dutch in the East Indies and not the US at PH. If they decided to launch an offensive against the Soviets to help their allies, Germany and Italy, they might very well have discontinued any advances in China or even pulled back from that country.

On Japanese withdrawling from China, not likely. Their leaders had thought that unacceptable and had chosen to risk everything instead and attack PH and SE Asia. The fuel embargo had left to them only two choices, either withdraw from China or attack US which was the force behind the embargo. They saw China market essential for their economy. That's why they attack China in first place.

Juha

Renrich, Juha is exactly correct, if you read the transcripts of the Imperial Japanese conferences in 1941 {translated of course! } their PRIMARY goal was to conquer China and it's vast resources. They would not give this up for anything, and in fact even the Emperor couldn't order it, as the IJA was solidly in favor, and had alot of political power.

There is also very little of value in the Soviet far East to the Japanese, it was only really of great value to the Russians to connect to Vladivostok.

However, in regards to your scenario, it is possible that the Axis would come to some kind of "deal", where the Japanese would attack the Far East as a diversion, for the promise of some Siberian Mongolian territory later. The Japanese attack is unlikely to make much headway, however, by tying up the Siberian troops it makes the Russian winter counter-attack of 1941-1942 very much more difficult, as winter troops were what made the difference.

 

[Soren]

On clothing, I have participated in military manouvres in -30deg C, so I have a first hand experience and can tell you that you have got it wrong. We carried a rolled woollen overcoat over our rucksacks just because if the temperature fell near -30deg and we could not make fire for tactical reasons we put it over. That was almost only use of that overcoat.

Juha

I'm sorry I haven't gotten it wrong Juha, you have. I've been to pretty much every climate you can imagine, including Siberia, and I'm telling you the padded Parka combination is a far superior winter combat uniform than anything similar to the M36 wool greatcoat. And you know what ? The Soviets, which were familiar with harsh winter weather, ironically enough agree with me. Hence why you see them wearing padded parka's and hence why the German military specifically asked for the Wintertarnanzug uniforms to replace the M36 wool coats which were NOT warm enough.

The M36 greatcoat was issued in full quantity from way before the start of the war, and was NOT meant for -30 degree temperatures, and nothing you will say can ever change that Juha. It was NOT warm enough, and thus the Wehrmacht SS both requested dedicated winter uniforms, and the result was the Wintertarnanzug series of uniforms. And from 1943 onwards a full shift was made to the Wintertarnanzug uniforms. Up until then, in 41 42, German troops had tried many makeshift impros to better keep warm in the equipment they were issued with from when they first stepped into the USSR. And this included lots of undergarments and extra tunics beneath the M36 greatcoat and a white sheet cover over the top to provide the camoflage that the M36 also didn't provide.

In short the German POWs you see on the photo I presented are undeniably underdressed! You can easily see how they tried with different makeshift improvisations to keep warm because their std. trenchcoat simply wasn't warm enough.

 

[parsifal]

Soviet theories on thermal insulation , and indeed everyone really is about getting still airpockets close to the body, rather than having tight fitting snug clothing. Look at the arctic gear being used today.....its very buly and loose fitting for that very reason.

The Soviets solved this problem in a slightly diffferent (and I believe better, and unique) way. They used a garment loosely described as Telogreika. This garment was quilted and made from thick cotton padding. The air pockets were literally sown into the garment itself. This special weave combined the advantages of a relatively snug fitting garment with the crucial needs of proper thermal insulation . In my opinion, it was the best solution devised to a difficult problem.

 

[Soren]

Very true Parsifal!

The Soviets knew what they were doing when it came to winterclothing, and the Germans pretty much just copied them with the Wintertarnanzug uniforms, which were basically just improved versions of the dedicated winterclothing that the Soviets issued.

The std. German winter parka issued in 44 to 45 (Below). Note the grey colour instead of the previous white, this was altered because the white easily got stained, removing the snow white camoflage effect, and was difficult to wash. Thus the white was changed to grey, and simple thin trouser jacket sheets were issued to be put over instead in snowy conditions. These thin sheets were also a lot easier to clean. The autumn camoflage was generally kept throughout and could be shifted to in seconds by turning the coat inside out.

 

[parsifal]

What this Soviet Kit looked like.....

the white garment was not the thermal layer, it serves primarily as camourflage, as wind protection, and as a waterproof layer. The thermal protection was derived from the quited gament and the Valenki boots also shown in these figures

 

[Soren]

Another German padded parka, this one from 1944 (Note the rectangular pattern):

 

[renrich]

FB, I understand that Japan wanted the land and resources of China and that is why, according to some historians, they started WW2 in 1937 by invading China. However, the conquest of China did not benefit the Japanese as much as they had hoped and I think it is plausible, assuming the Japanese military was rational, which is a big assumption, that the Japanese could have decided their interests might be better served by acting as a good ally to Germany by supporting the 1941 attack on Russia with troops from the China forces and winding up with theoretically a chunk of western Russia, Malaya, Indo China, the East Indies and perhaps Australia. In retrospect that should have satisfied even Japan. China is a big country, but I have recently read that around half of China is above 5000 feet which really cuts down on arable land. China was not as big a prize as Japan imagined it would be and it kind of acted in the role of a tar baby for the Japanese. Anyway, this is all fantasy but at least is fun to speculate about.

 

[Soren]

Yeah lets get back on topic.

As I've already stated the Japanese just needed to occupy as many Soviet soldiers material in the east as possible, making life easier for the Germans in the west.

The combined Japanese airforce (IJNAF IJAAF) was gonna have no trouble against the VVS, they would've quickly obtained air superiority in the region. But on the ground the Japanese were gonna have to fight hard. The a/c would provide a lot of help, but most of the job had to be finished by the troops on the ground.

In terms of infantry equipment on an individual basis the Japanese Soviets were the equals of each other, and in terms of available tanks there wouldn't be much difference either. The Soviets however could muster heavier artillery, so the Japanese had to counter that with their bomber force.

The next challenge for the Japanese was the eventual winter fighting, the Soviets were more familiar with this. It would probably take several months before the Japanese got it proper sorted.

So while I believe that the Japanese would advance steadily, it wouldn't be a cake run, but it didn't have to be either. The Germans were delivering the killing blows in the west, the Japanese just had to add that extra pressure needed to stay on track once Hitler made his major mistakes.

 

[parsifal]

FB, I understand that Japan wanted the land and resources of China and that is why, according to some historians, they started WW2 in 1937 by invading China. However, the conquest of China did not benefit the Japanese as much as they had hoped and I think it is plausible, assuming the Japanese military was rational, which is a big assumption, that the Japanese could have decided their interests might be better served by acting as a good ally to Germany by supporting the 1941 attack on Russia with troops from the China forces and winding up with theoretically a chunk of western Russia, Malaya, Indo China, the East Indies and perhaps Australia. In retrospect that should have satisfied even Japan. China is a big country, but I have recently read that around half of China is above 5000 feet which really cuts down on arable land. China was not as big a prize as Japan imagined it would be and it kind of acted in the role of a tar baby for the Japanese. Anyway, this is all fantasy but atleast is fun to speculate about.

Ren

what are the chinese doing whilst all this adventuring with the japanese army is occurring?

 

[Juha]

Soren
Look your photo in your message #193 inside the hood of the upper white camo parka one sees the green redbrown non-winter camo, so one can turn it over and use it also in summer. Are you suggesting that Germans were using their warmest cloth also as summer camo suit or at least spring/autumn camo. And everyone can see that the parka is made from rather thin material and thickness is very important for insulations.

Here we think that many thin layers is much better than one thick, first of all because one can easily add or remove a layer as needed according the temperature or workload, under hard work muscles generates lot of heat and one not need so much clothing, when one stops one needs warmer cloth and easiest way to get one is to add one or two more layers not to change from one overcoat to thicker one. That's why camo suits are rather thin as the parka in your photo. So one could use it irrespective the temp.

Parsifal
IMHO the finnish system is better in Northern European environment, in Arctic, Antarctic, Northern Canada and NE Siberia one might need a bit more insulation.
The Valenki boots were great as a child I had ones. It's huopasaapas in finnish.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Renrich
Japanese needed the resources but especially the markets of China, hundreds of millions potential customers for their products.

And as I wrote Soviets had more light automatic weapons, more heavier mortars and arty so they were better equipped for forest fighting. And forests shields well troops from air attacks even if IMHO VVS wuold have been clearly harder nut for Japanese than Soren thinks. Nomonhan made a significant impact also to JAAF thinking.

Juha

 

[Clay_Allison]

I only see this as potentially workable if the Japanese attacked Russia but NOT China and the other Asian nations. If the US saw Imperial Japan attacking a communist regime that was not well regarded here, who is to say we wouldn't SELL the Japanese weapons?

Imagine them driving into the Russian far east in Shermans and Jeeps.

 

[parsifal]

Soren

Parsifal
IMHO the finnish system is better in Northern European environment, in Arctic, Antarctic, Northern Canada and NE Siberia one might need a bit more insulation.
The Valenki boots were great as a child I have ones. It's huopasaapas in finnish.

Juha

Juha

Accepted. I think it goes without saying Finns knew best of all how to fight in the cold