Japanese schräge musik

Escuadrilla Azul · Mar 1, 2022

Both Germany and Japan came to use a similar solution for their nightfighters: obliquely mounted cannons.

As far as I'm able to find, both came roughly at the same time (1943, japanese slightly latter) but I do not come across any source that stated that there was any knowledge transfer between them.

That was a shared solution or sheer coincidence?

A.G. Williams · Mar 1, 2022

Upward-firing guns were in service in WW1, so it wasn't a new idea.

Escuadrilla Azul · Mar 1, 2022

Never heard about that.

That could explain but what puzzles me is that no other nation came to the the same solution, beside the time coincide

Denniss · Mar 1, 2022

It was a rather forgotten idea that had to be rediscovered by german and japanese aviators.
Even the british who where on the other side of the gun probably had no real idea what happended to their bombers until late in the war when some bombers survived with strange bullet paths through the aircraft's structure and after getting hand on a such-equipped aircraft

Shortround6 · Mar 1, 2022

For the British the time it took to work out the fact that the Germans were using guns that pointed in a different direction than the aircraft was flying is puzzling because not only did the British use upward firing guns in WW I as A. G. Williams has said, but the British had built a number of different fighters in the late 1920s using the 37mm COW gun.
See the 37mm COW gun in Google for pictures of the gun and several fignters.

Escuadrilla Azul · Mar 1, 2022

Shortround6 said:
For the British the time it took to work out the fact that the Germans were using guns that pointed in a different direction than the aircraft was flying is puzzling because not only did the British use upward firing guns in WW I as A. G. Williams has said, but the British had built a number of different fighters in the late 1920s using the 37mm COW gun.
See the 37mm COW gun in Google for pictures of the gun and several fignters.

Thanks, never heard about that either

MikeMeech · Mar 1, 2022

Escuadrilla Azul said:
Thanks, never heard about that either

Hi
The COW Gun fighters were designed for Specification F.29/27 and required to fly under enemy bomber formation passing overhead at 20,000 feet at a speed of 150 mph, the gun to be angled upwards at 45 degrees. 'Armament of British Aircraft 1909-1939' by H F King, Putnam 1971, has some information on this:

Mike

Shinpachi · Mar 1, 2022

The idea for the night fighter with the upward gun in Japan was suggested by Cdr. Yasuna Kozono in Rabaul during the continual and persistent night attacks by the B-17s in May, 1942 and realized as an experimental night fighter in February, 1943. Formally adopted as the J1N1-S in August the year. A common factor between Japan and Germany would be the B-17.

buffnut453 · Mar 1, 2022

Denniss said:
It was a rather forgotten idea that had to be rediscovered by german and japanese aviators.
Even the british who where on the other side of the gun probably had no real idea what happended to their bombers until late in the war when some bombers survived with strange bullet paths through the aircraft's structure and after getting hand on a such-equipped aircraft

Not sure I agree that it was a "forgotten idea." The Boulton Paul Defiant, which was designed as a bomber-killer, could easily have elevated its guns to rake the underside of a bomber.

IIRC the RAF also experimented with a battery of upwards-firing guns in the upper fuselage of a Douglas A-20, in the area where the upper hinged hatch is located (open hatch is shown in the image below). AFAIK the installation was never used operationally.

GrauGeist · Mar 1, 2022

The Gloster G.39 was a response to an Air Ministry order for such an equipped aircraft, if I remember right.

The P-61 was able to perform the role with it's upper turret, though I don't recall if it was ever used in that fashion.

MikeMeech · Mar 1, 2022

buffnut453 said:
Not sure I agree that it was a "forgotten idea." The Boulton Paul Defiant, which was designed as a bomber-killer, could easily have elevated its guns to rake the underside of a bomber.

View attachment 659800

IIRC the RAF also experimented with a battery of upwards-firing guns in the upper fuselage of a Douglas A-20, in the area where the upper hinged hatch is located (open hatch is shown in the image below). AFAIK the installation was never used operationally.

View attachment 659799

Hi
The above mentioned gun system fitted to RAF Havoc BD126 is illustrated in Tim Mason's ''The Secret Years, Flight Testing at Boscombe Down 1939-1945', Hikoki, 1998:

Mike

buffnut453 · Mar 1, 2022

MikeMeech said:
Hi
The above mentioned gun system fitted to RAF Havoc BD126 is illustrated in Tim Mason's ''The Secret Years, Flight Testing at Boscombe Down 1939-1945', Hikoki, 1998:
View attachment 659804
Mike

Thanks Mike. I knew I'd seen it in Mason's book...I just didn't have time to dig it out. Appreciate including the pics...and having the timing of this experimental modification further reinforces my contention that this wasn't a "forgotten idea."

Jabberwocky · Mar 1, 2022

buffnut453 said:
Not sure I agree that it was a "forgotten idea." The Boulton Paul Defiant, which was designed as a bomber-killer, could easily have elevated its guns to rake the underside of a bomber.

Could and did.

One of the standard tactics for Defiants during night fighting operations in 1941 and 1942 was to identify a German bomber from underneath and to the side, and then to maneuver to fire at it from a position beneath it (not necessarily directly underneath though).

It wasn't wholly successful as a tactic, but that was more up to the equipment than the technique. The Defiant was relatively slow and the 4 x .303 armament needed luck to hit something vital to bring a bomber down.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 1, 2022

Shinpachi said:
[...] the continual and persistent night attacks by the B-17s in May, 1942 [...]

Where were these, Shin?

BlackSheep · Mar 2, 2022

Shortround6 said:
For the British the time it took to work out the fact that the Germans were using guns that pointed in a different direction than the aircraft was flying is puzzling because not only did the British use upward firing guns in WW I as A. G. Williams has said, but the British had built a number of different fighters in the late 1920s using the 37mm COW gun.
See the 37mm COW gun in Google for pictures of the gun and several fignters.

Truly puzzling.
From the time ME-110s deployed in mass with schrage muzik and they were discovered by the Brits was approximately 9 MONTHS!
Leading night fighter ace Heinz Wolfgang Schaufer said his preferred tactic was to ghost under a Lancaster wing and fire a 2-second burst into the fuel tanks, thus avoiding setting off the bomb load and downing himself. On his most successful mission, he said the bombers kept lining up for him, making it so easy that after 7, he tired of killing and returned to base.

Lastly, while a lot of the time it took to figure out what was happening to the missing bombers was blamed on the lack of a surviving tail gunner to debrief, months before the formal deployment of schrage muzik A CAPTURED GERMAN MECHANIC HAD REVEALED ITS EXISTENCE DURING AN INTERROGATION!! No one was listening.

Lastly, in an effort to save morale, the RAF told it's aircrews that a lot of those flaming bombers they witnessed hurtling towards Earth were in reality secret shells those crafty Germans were shooting into the air that upon bursting simulated the effect of a flaming bomber. Nothing to worry about, old boy, just the jerrys tugging at your knickers again…

Shinpachi · Mar 2, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Where were these, Shin?

Japanese thought the B-17s flew from Australia.

tomo pauk · Mar 2, 2022

BlackSheep said:
Lastly, while a lot of the time it took to figure out what was happening to the missing bombers was blamed on the lack of a surviving tail gunner to debrief, months before the formal deployment of schrage muzik A CAPTURED GERMAN MECHANIC HAD REVEALED ITS EXISTENCE DURING AN INTERROGATION!! No one was listening.

That's very interesting. Have some link to share?

BlackSheep · Mar 2, 2022

tomo pauk said:
That's very interesting. Have some link to share?

I'm searching for the link, but, the information about the POW and the "decoy" shells were in an extensive write up of Arthur Harris' memoirs and meetings people remember with him.

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 2, 2022

Shinpachi said:
Japanese thought the B-17s flew from Australia.

Attacking where?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

GrauGeist · Mar 2, 2022

Thumpalumpacus said:
Attacking where?

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I beleive Shinpachi said Rabaul.

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