glennasher
Senior Airman
Wasn't there a SAAB, previously a prop pusher (IIRC) that they converted to jets?
Jet Aircraft that Flew in the 1940s
- Thread starter GregP
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special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,662
- May 13, 2018
The J-21R
Admiral Beez
Major
It's amazing that French aircraft before the war were some of the most hideous and after the war some of the most handsome.
I remember seeing the Mirage 4000 and thinking this is what we needed to buy to replace the CF-101, CF-104 and CF-116.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
If looks alone could kill they'd clear the skies.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The F-102, which looks very similar, came out at the same time.
Admiral Beez
Major
They're at least a generation apart.
F-102, First flight Oct 1953, Introdued April 1956
Dassault Mirage 4000, First flight Mar 1979
Perhaps you mean the original Mirage III? They do look similar, true.
The F-102 was subsonic IIRC, needing the F-106 and its area rule to address the former's deficiencies.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
F-102 was supersonic, was able to fly in excess of 800 mph
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,662
- May 13, 2018
After area rule retro fitted.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Australia made the Mirage III under licence and had a massive supply problem with certain parts that the French did not licence.
Admiral Beez
Major
The Israelis figured it out.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
yes but the Isrealis are under constant threat and so have the incentive that brings.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Well they stole the plans and had to make the parts themselves anyway.
Admiral Beez
Major
Considering Marcel Bloch's Jewish roots I wonder if the plans were made available for theft.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
They were stolen from the Swiss who were distinctly unchuffed.
- Thread starter
- #55
GregP
Major
In post #43 above, the Mirage 4000 is mentioned, but the picture is of a single-engine Mirage.
Mirage 4000 below:
Decidedly twin-engine. Unfortunately, nobody bought it, so it remained a company demonstrator. Another company also made a company-funded fighter, the Northrop F-20, which ALSO never sold and remained a company airplane. The moral of the story would be:
Never developed a cutting-edge jet fighter without a firm order from a customer that makes the development profitable. If the customer is not your own country, you also had better make sure the sale is approved for foreign purchase before spending said money on development. If you develop an airplane without orders, the odds are not in your company's favor to sell it.
Mirage 4000 below:
Decidedly twin-engine. Unfortunately, nobody bought it, so it remained a company demonstrator. Another company also made a company-funded fighter, the Northrop F-20, which ALSO never sold and remained a company airplane. The moral of the story would be:
Never developed a cutting-edge jet fighter without a firm order from a customer that makes the development profitable. If the customer is not your own country, you also had better make sure the sale is approved for foreign purchase before spending said money on development. If you develop an airplane without orders, the odds are not in your company's favor to sell it.
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Canada buys Mirage 4000
If Canada had bought the Mirage 4000 as a replacement for its CF-101, CF-104 and CF-116 would this have been sufficient to save the program from cancellation? I have to think the Mirage 4000 would have been nearly the ideal long range interceptor for Canada's 1980-onwards NORAD role, plus...
www.alternatehistory.com
Hi Greg - definitely an illusion. If you look closer - its the port engine you're seeing. The fin straddles both engines...
In profile it's very deceiving....
buffnut453
Captain
Wow...seeing that pic of the Mirage 4000 brings back some long-forgotten memories. My family took me to the 1987 Farnborough Airshow as a treat before I joined up. The Mirage was one of the aircraft displayed. Shame it never saw operational service as it could have done good work (IMHO).
- Thread starter
- #58
GregP
Major
Well, I stand corrected, Buffnut.
I always thought the Mirage 4000 was a sure bet to sell (I figured at LEAST Canada or the Saudis would get some), but it didn't and, to this day, I can't understand why. It definitely outperformed the singe engine Mirages II and 2000. SHOULD have been a real winner for Dassault and wound up a non-starter. Perhaps the avionics weren't quite up to the performance of the airframe yet. I can't really say why it failed.
wheelsup_cavu
1st Sergeant
Quite surprised to see that there were so many jets flown during the 1940's.
Wheels
Wheels
- Thread starter
- #60
GregP
Major
Nice to see you back in here, Wheels. 
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