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davebender
1st Lieutenant
Roll is typically more important at high speeds and high altitude. Banked turn capability is relatively more important at low altitude and slower speeds where the CAS battle takes place.
Not that I would recommend Ju-87 or most other single engine dive bombers for air to air combat as they were just too slow. IJN D4Y (Judy) dive bomber is one of the few that were fast enough to compete with fighter aircraft. Twin engine Me-410 dive bomber could fight other aircraft in a pinch too.
Not that I would recommend Ju-87 or most other single engine dive bombers for air to air combat as they were just too slow. IJN D4Y (Judy) dive bomber is one of the few that were fast enough to compete with fighter aircraft. Twin engine Me-410 dive bomber could fight other aircraft in a pinch too.
Escort them to protect them against what? Any decent fighter aircraft will make mince meat of a Ju 87. Ask any Battle of Britain pilot.
Cheers
Steve
kettbo
Senior Airman
I'll have to read STUKA PILOT again
Perhaps run interference, draw away AAA fire, suppress AAA fire?
Perhaps run interference, draw away AAA fire, suppress AAA fire?
Most strike aircraft, with front guns, were used as "fighters" if a suitable target came into view. The Skua was used to intercept raids on RN carriers in 1940, and the SBD was used against IJN Kates on several occasions. Stukas were used to intercept an Albacore strike on Kirkenes in July 1941 where they shot down several Albacores and in return lost one to an Albacore front gun.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The SBD downed a variety of Japanese fighters and bombers during it's time and it was even used as a reserve fleet CAP aircraft in the early stages of the PTO.
It's actually ranked among the Allied fighters, for PTO victories.
It's actually ranked among the Allied fighters, for PTO victories.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
During the BoB, several Ju 87 pilots would wait until an RAF plane had lined up on their 6 then lower the dive brakes and get a few shots off as the attacking fighter overshot the Stuka. Several escaped that way.
And an awful lot got shot down
Teddy Donaldson of 151 Squadron summed up the attitude of Fighter Command's pilots towards the Ju 87.
They were "...very easy to get out of the sky. We tackled them from the back end and the poor bastards just fell out of the sky."
Not for no reason did the pilots of Fighter Command invent the phrase 'Stuka party'.
Cheers
Steve
Bad-Karma
Airman 1st Class
Can you expand on the top part a little more? Why is roll more important at high speeds and altitude?
davebender
1st Lieutenant
He-177 could never dive bomb. However it could bomb in a shallow dive to increase speed which lessened time over enemy air defenses.
l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
"Stuka Party" was obviously a battle incentive and a youthfull legend.
Not without ground, but those two are good reasons for it came to be.
Ilyushin Il-2 and SBD Dauntless were also 'good fighters' when circonstances were there.
Hell, in wartime even a helmet can become an offensive weapon...
[I think the thread should avoid bashing or anihilating the idea of using a Ju-87 as an air to air weapon, obviously opportunistic, but instead document it, and discuss versus the Aichi Val or Dauntless etc.]
Not without ground, but those two are good reasons for it came to be.
Ilyushin Il-2 and SBD Dauntless were also 'good fighters' when circonstances were there.
Hell, in wartime even a helmet can become an offensive weapon...
[I think the thread should avoid bashing or anihilating the idea of using a Ju-87 as an air to air weapon, obviously opportunistic, but instead document it, and discuss versus the Aichi Val or Dauntless etc.]
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It's a phrase that came into RAF parlance in 1940 to reflect the relative ease (and lack of risk) with which the Ju 87 could be engaged by a Spitfire or Hurricane. Nobody talked about Messerschmitt parties.
Several memoirs refer to the Stuka in similar terms to the ones I posted previously. One pilot simply described the Ju 87 as 'my favourite target'.
It wasn't a fighter, it was a dive bomber and the idea that it had any air to air capability when confronted with fighters is simply wrong. Whether it could compete with other types is a moot point.
Cheers
Steve
Shortround6
Major General
There is quite a difference between what a skillful and determined pilot could do and what a below average or green pilot could do. There is also an element of luck. Avro Anson's shot down several Bf 109s but nobody in their right mind thought Ansons were the answer to 109s.
Vals and Dauntlesses were used at times to stretch fighter numbers and were intended to be used against even poorer performing aircraft. Zeros or F4Fs engage enemy fighters and the dive bombers then try to engage the undefended/unescorted Kates or TBDs. Or Vals attacked Hudsons or Vildebeests or what ever.
There were often some rather large differences in the ability of some pilots and the average pilot on the other side. This allowed some good pilots to get away with tactics (stunts) that would be rather questionable if used against decent pilots. In other words they worked right up until they didn't and then the pilot using them was not usually in a position to write memoirs.
Vals and Dauntlesses were used at times to stretch fighter numbers and were intended to be used against even poorer performing aircraft. Zeros or F4Fs engage enemy fighters and the dive bombers then try to engage the undefended/unescorted Kates or TBDs. Or Vals attacked Hudsons or Vildebeests or what ever.
There were often some rather large differences in the ability of some pilots and the average pilot on the other side. This allowed some good pilots to get away with tactics (stunts) that would be rather questionable if used against decent pilots. In other words they worked right up until they didn't and then the pilot using them was not usually in a position to write memoirs.
Shortround6
Major General
Duplicate
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ironically, it was a Stuka that was credited with the first Axis air-to-air victory, when on 1 September 1939, a Ju87 encountered and shot down, a PZL P.11c of the Polish Air Force.
