Ju88 is Luftwaffe's Mosquito

stona · Oct 31, 2012

davebender said:
I doubt the RAF dropped target indicators and/or a 4,000 lb cookie when attacking a police station.

Nope,each aircraft dropped four 500lb bombs,at least on "Jericho".

Pathfinding was just one of many roles for the Mosquito given by Bomber Command after its first operation (to take photographs of the damage caused to Cologne) on 31 May 1942.
Mosquitos were also capable of marking from low level. Most Pathfinders were not Mosquitos in any case. "Cookies" and target indicators were often dropped on diversionary "spoof" raids.

One of the most striking facts noticed leafing through the Bomber Command War Diaries is just how few Mosquitos flew with Bomber Command on a typical night. It is not often a double figure number and rarely more than thirty.

Cheers

Steve

davebender · Oct 31, 2012

Me-210C / Me-410A on a similiar mission probably would have dropped four 250 kg bombs. Pretty much the same thing.

Not all nations solve military problems the same way. Late war Britain used the Mosquito for pathfinder missions because they had plenty available. Germany built only 1,189 Me-410s (including conversions from Me-210) and only 195 of them were assigned to light bomber units. Not enough available for pathfinder and night fighter units so Ju-88s got those missions.

stona · Oct 31, 2012

Ignore

Milosh · Oct 31, 2012

Pathfinder missions for Mossies started in June 1943 with 105 Sqd and Apr 1943 with 139 Sqd. Hhardly late war.

pathfinder squadrons (Wiki)
Between 1942 and 1945

No. 7 Squadron RAF - Stirling, then Lancaster
No. 35 Squadron RAF - Halifax, then Lancaster
No. 83 Squadron RAF - Lancaster
No. 97 Squadron RAF - Lancaster
No. 105 Squadron RAF - Mosquito
No. 109 Squadron RAF - Wellington, then Mosquito - Oboe
No. 128 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1944
No. 139 Squadron RAF - Mosquito
No. 142 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1944
No. 156 Squadron RAF - Wellington, then Lancaster
No. 162 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1944
No. 163 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1945
No. 405 Squadron RCAF - Halifax, then Lancaster
No. 571 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1943
No. 582 Squadron RAF - Lancaster formed 1944
No. 608 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1944
No. 627 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1943
No. 635 Squadron RAF - Lancaster formed 1944
No. 692 Squadron RAF - Mosquito formed 1944

Denniss · Oct 31, 2012

davebender said:
Germany built only 1,189 Me-410s (including conversions from Me-210)

Not a single Me 210 was converted to Me 410, they used stored and updated Me 210 airframes for initial Me 410 production.

wiking85 · Oct 31, 2012

davebender said:
1939 Germany was the world's largest aluminum producer. It makes sense for WWII Germany to build aircraft of aluminum.

Britain and the Soviet Union did not produce much aluminum at the start of WWII. That's why they used other materials such as wood and fabric.

If Germany had been short of aluminum the Ju-88 probably would have been built out of fabric covered steel tube in a manner similiar to the Hurricane fighter aircraft or wood in a manner similiar to the Mosquito.

Nevertheless Goering had the following to say about this very concept:
de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Göring's comments
The Mosquito famously annoyed the Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, when, on 20 January 1943, the 10th anniversary of the Nazis' seizure of power, a Mosquito attack knocked out the main Berlin broadcasting station, putting his speech off air. Göring complained about the high speed of the aircraft and its wooden structure, built by a nation he considered to have large metal reserves, while Germany had shortages of such materials and could not produce such a design.[90]

In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy. The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that? There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked.
— Hermann Göring, 1943.[91][92]
[edit]

nuuumannn · Oct 31, 2012

That's why they used other materials such as wood and fabric.

With regards to the British that's absolute rubbish. The Mosquito was conceived for use of wood because de Havilland was well practised in building aircraft structures out of wood, not because there was a shortage of aluminium. The use of wood and fabric in British aircraft was because it was still useful as a material for constructing aircraft with. If Britain had a shortage of ali before the war, how do you explain Short Sunderlands, Fairey Battles, AW Whitleys, HP Hampdens, Spittys, Hurricanes (and before you say anything about Hurris built out of wood, just the very early Mk.Is had wooden wings, Hurricane fuselage structure was entirely of welded steel tube and ali, just covered with fabric - and this was in keeping with Hawker practise in previous types - not because there was a shortage of ali!) Wellingtons, Blenheims etc all appearing in numbers and under construction in numbers before the war? There was no shortage of aluminium in Britain at that time.

nuuumannn · Nov 1, 2012

Here's a few close up pics of the Mossie recently flown in NZ. What is readily apparent is how smooth the exterior finish is.

KA114, an FB.26 wears the markings of an FB.6 of 487 (New Zealand) Sqn that took part in Jericho

The business end of the FB.6 was identical to this.

The bomb bay was sectioned with the front half being occupied by the four 20 mm cannon and armament, with the rear for carrying bombs.

One for the Ich liebe Deutchland/Deutchland uber Alles crowd.

Lastly, an example of the ultimate Mossie bomber variant, the B.35 showing bulged bomb bay doors and a reproduction 4,000 lb cookie bomb on a trolley next to it. That aint gonna fit in the Me 410, nor is an Ar 234 gonna get off the ground with one of those under its belly.

CobberKane · Nov 1, 2012

Regarding a shortage of aluminium in the UK during the war, it must have existed in at least some form at times because my Grandmother told me of everyone giving up their alunimium cookwear. Regarding the speed of the Mosquito compared to German fighters, I've read that its advantage was not so much in maximum speed, where it was comptetitve rather than dominant, but maximum sustained speed. From the point of view of the intercepting pilot, if they weren't in exactly the right place at the right time they would run out of boost or fuel before they could close on the mossie and would have to give up the chase.

stona · Nov 1, 2012

CobberKane said:
Regarding a shortage of aluminium in the UK during the war, it must have existed in at least some form at times because my Grandmother told me of everyone giving up their alunimium cookwear.

Sometimes these sort of Home Front excercise were done as much for morale as from real necessity.I don't know if that was the case with aluminium or not. That's not to say the aluminium wasn't used.

Health and Safety Officers hadn't been invented when that photograph was taken A vest and a manly pose were all that was required whilst melting aluminium.

It certainly happened,my mother told me that at the time she was quite sure her mum's pots and pans would end up as part of a Spitfire (what else!).

She also remembered lead being collected,there must have been some leaky roofs,but I've not found any confirmation of that.

Here's some aluminium trivia:
When Sir Charles Portal, Arthur Harris's predecessor as commander of Bomber Command, retired from the Royal Air Force he became Chair of British Aluminium.
The roof of the new Memorial for Bomber Command in Green Park is made from aluminium recovered from a Halifax bomber that was shot down over Belgium.

The NZ Mosquito looks fantastic,what a credit to the restorers.

Cheers

Steve

fastmongrel · Nov 1, 2012

Guess what all those pots and pans were turned into. Military issue pots and pans you cant make aircraft grade aluminium out of the sort of junk that goes to make a saucepan. There never was a major shortage of aluminium during the war though things were tight there were significant stockpiles of aluminium ingots and Bauxite that were never needed.

What was short during the war was high grade steel alloys particulary the Nitrided sort used to make crankshafts, gears, conrods and camshafts.

Gixxerman · Nov 1, 2012

In my view the Ju 88 is obviously a very versatile plane (always liked the Ju 188/388 variants too, especially the fast reconn S versions).

Those Mossies look beautiful.

.....and her ability to carry the 4,000lb cookie is quite amazing given the speed height she could do it at (including high speed low level attacks on Berlin no less).

I don't think the Luftwaffe had anything that could genuinely match this ability.

davparlr · Nov 1, 2012

I would think that getting a good, clean aerodynamic surface would be easier for a wooden aircraft than for an aluminum one. Just get a few proud furniture artisans with sandpaper and furniture polish and watch the artwork appear, as in the pix above.

No matter what your favoritism is, you gotta love the design of the Mosquito. In my opinion, it is more of an aerodynamic masterpiece than the Spitfire.

stona · Nov 1, 2012

fastmongrel said:
Guess what all those pots and pans were turned into. Military issue pots and pans you cant make aircraft grade aluminium out of the sort of junk that goes to make a saucepan.

That's not quite true.
From Jules Backman and Leo Fishman, 'British wartime control of aluminum', Quarterly Journal of Economics 56 (1) (1941)

"Although these contributions were to be voluntary, the timing of the appeal, its tone, and the manner in which it was put forward left the impression that the country's need for scrap aluminum was urgent. As a result, the response from the housewives was immediate and their contributions were reported to be of quite considerable proportions. Almost as prompt were the criticisms and complaints raised from trade and parliamentary quarters, as well as by some groups of skeptical housewives. Thus many scrap metal merchants became indignant when the appeal was made, calling attention to the tons of scrap in their yards for which they were unable to find a market. To this objection it was pointed out in Parliament that not all aluminum scrap was suitable for use in aircraft production. This limitation was especially true for the scrap held by these dealers, whereas that obtained from household utensils was excellent for this purpose."

This must be a reflection on the pots and pans of the day as it is true that tipping a load of different aluminium alloys into a smelter is not going to get you something like duralumin. It might be feasible to make other aluminium parts from it though.

Cheers

Steve

spicmart · Nov 1, 2012

Shortround6 said:
No but it's wooden construction allowed for a smoother surface finish than metal planes had. Look down the side of many metal aircraft and the sides dish in a bit between the frames and flush rivets often aren't

An old, well worn Mosquito might be a different story but a new one might have a very smooth (or fair) surface.

The wing profile looks a little bit like it does have a laminar wing though. But as it ain't so what are the characteristics of the Mosquito design other than the engines which make it so fast?

davparlr · Nov 1, 2012

spicmart said:
The wing profile looks a bit like it does have a laminar wing though. But as it ain't so what are the characteristics of the Mosquito design other than the engines which make it so fast?

My opinion, superb design, attention to detail, and possibly finish.

spicmart · Nov 1, 2012

Its cockpit section, especially of the fighter version, and fuselage do not look any more streamlined than those of its Luftwaffe twin engined opponents.
In fact even more draggy as its fuselage seems to have a wider cross section than the Me 110 e.g..
The wings, radiator and nacelles do look sleek.
But I'm no aerodynamicist.
Anyway the Mossie is one sleek and beautiful machine.

nuuumannn · Nov 1, 2012

I'm with you Daveparlr, on this; although I think its clean finish definitely had something to do with it, plus its buried radiators/oil coolers in the wing roots and, need I say it, plenty of power.

It's a little unfair to post pics of a very recently completed Mossie and not show it's contemporaries, so here are the Baaaad Guys;

One of the greats of WW2 on any side and one of my favourites, the truly versatile Ju 88. The story of how this one ended up in the UK could have come from the pages of an Ian Fleming novel.

Sleek and powerful looking, the Me 410

The sublimely beautiful Ar 234, although its a lot smaller than I thought it would be.

And finally an aircraft is sometimes referred to as Russia's Mosquito, so it definitely deserves more coverage; the Tupolev Tu-2

fastmongrel · Nov 2, 2012

stona said:
That's not quite true.
From Jules Backman and Leo Fishman, 'British wartime control of aluminum', Quarterly Journal of Economics 56 (1) (1941)

I cant remember where I read or heard it but apparently none of the scrap aluminium pots and pans ever got anywhere near an aircraft. A lot of the scrap was simply recycled into more pots and pans and and the only people getting new pots and pans were the military.

My father when he left the RAF got a temporary job as a machinist making gauges and instruments for ships. He told me that one day he was machining an engine room telegraph out of brass when the the work caught fire in the lathe. Turned out the supposed brass was recycled metal and had a considerable proportion of magnesium in it, as the machining lube they used was neat paraffin oil that also caught fire and the lathe was wrecked.

fastmongrel · Nov 2, 2012

nuuuman nice pictures but wasnt it the Petlyakov Pe-2 that was referred to as the Russian Mosquito.

Petlyakov Pe-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ju88 is Luftwaffe's Mosquito

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