Just How Superior

[Civettone]

The P-51 was a average performer until it dumped the Alison engine and installed twin 20 mm gattlin guns under the wings and a rear firing 40mm .

Some models had Electromagnetic Pulse capability.

Other models had a flamethrower and tail gunner

Kris

 

[Soren]

Nothing beats the guardians though:

LOL

 

[SoD Stitch]

The best fighter of WW2 is undoubtedly the Me-262A-1a, but unreliable engines, low fuel supply the few numbers available made sure it didn't have a chance to turn the tide of the war.

In terms of piston engined fighters the Ta-152H-1 takes the prize hands down, but again low fuel numbers also made sure this baby didn't seriously affect the war.

Next comes the FW-190 Dora-9 which IMO was the best series produced fighter of WW2, featuring much better maneuverability than the P-51, P-47 P-38, its main rivals over Germany, as-well as being faster at most altitudes. But yet again it was out-numbered in the air and fuel was low.

Even so the only aircraft which could've turned the tide in favor of the Germans was the Me-262, had it been available in numbers by the beginning of 1944 as-well as granted the fighter-role by the Führer by this time then it could've turned the tide. Could it have won the war for the Germans ? No I don't believe so, esp. not with Hitler in command, but it would've prolonged the war to a point where an invasion of Germany would've proven way too costly and other more drastic measures had to be taken - so lets consider ourselves lucky that didn't happen.

Gotta go woth Soren on this one . . .

One thing I learned a long time ago in my many studies of history is that "The winner writes the history"; there is no better example than WWII. Yes, the Germans did some atrocious things (i.e "the Nazis"), but the average German soldier was no different than the average Allied soldier; they were both just fighting for "God and the homeland".

That being the case, the P-51 came out of the War looking like a delivering angel. Yes, it was good at a few things and, overall, it probably was the best "all-rounder" of the War; but I'd still go up against it in a Ta 152/153 or a Do 335. Give me a Pfiel in decent running order, and I'd take on a -51D any day.

That being said, as Soren argued, if the 262 had been available in quantity earlier than '45, I'm sure it would've extended the War well into '46 and, possibly, beyond. And by then, maybe, the Go 229 would've been available in numbers, which would've prolonged the War another year or so. Ya never know . . .

 

[Sgt. Pappy]

Really, the 262 didn't even have to necessarily have to enter service earlier... it just should have been top priority to be used as a fighter as opposed to a jabo machine like Hitler wanted it to be.

 

[Civettone]

Don't think that would have mattered much. It didn't see much action as a fighter bomber nor as a fighter before 1945. It was the engines which delayed the project, how the Me 262 was to be used was of secondary importance to that.

Kris

 

[The Basket]

I don't understand the Americanos giving the P-51 a hard time. It is a fine machine. Of course, it was a British ordered aircraft and needed a British engine...but aint that what allies are for?

Not sure about the Pfiel against the D. The Pfiel was never operational and no dogfighter. It would be outnumbered too in 45.

The Zero would out turn it at low speed and low altitude but I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. So the Mustang is great because it can do many things well and has no real weaknesses. Hurrah.

 

[JP Vieira]

It is allways a balance between the aircraft itself (its caractheristics) and the pilot (his training and motivation)

 

[Erich]

several top things come to mind

.50's had a longer range and could buzzup a 109/190 like hot knife to butter

the late war G suit for compressability

the K-14 gunsight which I feel was superior to any Revi sight during the war

from mid 44 till wars end it was not going to matter what the LW threw up in the air, they were going to lose every time

 

[lesofprimus]

Agreed with Erich 100%...

 

[Aussie1001]

several top things come to mind

.50's had a longer range and could buzzup a 109/190 like hot knife to butter

the late war G suit for compressability

the K-14 gunsight which I feel was superior to any Revi sight during the war

from mid 44 till wars end it was not going to matter what the LW threw up in the air, they were going to lose every time

what about the 20mm cannon.....?


other than that yeah i have to say you are right......
BUT my favourite plane is the Tempest......

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The P-51 was a average performer until it dumped the Alison engine and installed twin 20 mm gattlin guns under the wings and a rear firing 40mm .

Some models had Electromagnetic Pulse capability.

Other models had a flamethrower and tail gunner

 

[Soren]

the late war G suit for compressability

Huh ?

Frank's G-suit didn't help that much at all, and some argue that the heightened foot-rests + the inclined seating position in German aircraft did more or atleast as much to set back black outs under high G-forces.

the K-14 gunsight which I feel was superior to any Revi sight during the war

How about the Askania EZ42 gyro gunsight later mounted in the Me-262 ? I'd argue that it was at the very least as good as the K-14, esp. since it proved superior to the K-14 in Allied testing.

 

[AL Schlageter]

Huh ??

How about the Askania EZ42 gyro gunsight later mounted in the Me-262 ? I'd argue that it was at the very least as good as the K-14.

I remember seen some stats on the EZ42 and from them it was superior. Some 190s and even a Do335 mounted the EZ42 (from photos).

One of the problems many people have is they look at the stats for the P-51 which is for it loaded take off weight and not for its combat weight when it would be engaging LW fighters. The fuel in the fuselage tank added some 510lbs. Two 75gal drop tanks, fueled, weighed 1040lbs.

 

[Soren]

The P-51 used a laminar flow airfoil though, and while the sharper and more symmetric profile of this type of airfoil helped decrease drag allot it also lowered the lift compared to the ordinary type airfoil.

 

[drgondog]

Huh ?

Frank's G-suit didn't help that much at all, and some argue that the heightened foot-rests + the inclined seating position in German aircraft did more or atleast as much to set back black outs under high G-forces.



How about the Askania EZ42 gyro gunsight later mounted in the Me-262 ? I'd argue that it was at the very least as good as the K-14, esp. since it proved superior to the K-14 in Allied testing.

Huh??? Where in the world did you come up with basis for the G-suit not being useful?

"who" argues that the seating arrangement in German aircraft did more to reduce black outs- and under what tests were the comparisons made?

As to the EZ42 - what was the basis for 'superiority'. Source?

Both slaved to gyro, both tuned to boresight, 50 cal more efficient ballistically and therfore more margin for error when 'ring' not set correctly.

 

[luftwaffemesserschmitt]

the EZ-42 i spend some research on it..
It was proven to be in fw-190 sturn versions and it realy did wel..

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Frank's G-suit didn't help that much at all, and some argue that the heightened foot-rests + the inclined seating position in German aircraft did more or atleast as much to set back black outs under high G-forces.

Soren, I could tell you first hand, I don't care if you had heightened foot rests, reclining seats or anything as such, the guy without the g-suit WILL black out first, end of story!!!!

 

[drgondog]

the EZ-42 i spend some research on it..
It was proven to be in fw-190 sturn versions and it realy did wel..

I'm not skeptical about its quality, just curious how tests had been performed to compare to K-14 and lead to any conclusions one way or the other.

 

[Soren]

Guys,

I know how useful a G-suit is, its absolutely essential in mordern fighters, but we're talking about the first pratical G-suit ever here. The Frank's G-suit doesn't even approach capabilities of the modern G-suit, being according to dr. Frank himself capable of allowing pilots to withstand six G's. The heightened foot rests inclined seating position in German aircraft in itself did allot to delay black outs, and experienced pilots could with a little grunting delay black outs for another 3 g's. Having the pilot completely on his back or stomach would've largely eliminated black outs, but this wasn't really possible to technically achieve in 1940's.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Guys,

I know how useful a G-suit is, its absolutely essential in mordern fighters, but we're talking about the first pratical G-suit ever here. The Frank's G-suit doesn't even approach capabilities of the modern G-suit, being according to dr. Frank himself capable of allowing pilots to withstand six G's. The heightened foot rests inclined seating position in German aircraft in itself did allot to delay black outs, and experienced pilots could with a little grunting delay black outs for another 3 g's. Having the pilot completely on his back or stomach would've largely eliminated black outs, but this wasn't really possible to technically achieve in 1940's.

The early G suits used late in the war worked just fine. Franks MK III suit was very similar to what is in use today with the exception of nomex materials and the quick disconnect fittings where the suit plugs in. The Earlier MK II suit used water and was not as effective or favored by pilots. I know at least 2 WW2 P-51 vets who specifically spoke about G suits and they stated they were a major advantage in the dogfight - Col. Mike Alba, USAF (Ret) and Lt. Joe Melechi USAF (Ret).

I believe the Mk III Suit made its way to Korea as well...

P-51 drivers with MK III G suits