Lancaster as an escorted, daylight bomber ala B-17/24?

[33k in the air]

The pilot's low chance of survival was down to him having to hold the plane steady while the rest of the crew bailed...

I would point out the rear gunner had a survivability rate as low as or lower than the pilot, depending on the aircraft.

 

[pbehn]

The pilot's low chance of survival was down to him having to hold the plane steady while the rest of the crew bailed...

That is true, but also in the Lancaster the escape route out of the plane was difficult, if the plane was unstable as soon as the controls were left it would dive spin or whatever. There was an escape hatch there for ditching but almost impossible use with a parachute attached, a book Ive just read described a pilot getting out and attaching the parachute outside the plane, obviously that wasn't always successful.

 

[33k in the air]

That is true, but also in the Lancaster the escape route out of the plane was difficult, if the plane was unstable as soon as the controls were left it would dive spin or whatever. There was an escape hatch there for ditching but almost impossible use with a parachute attached, a book Ive just read described a pilot getting out and attaching the parachute outside the plane, obviously that wasn't always successful.

That was true for the rear gunners as well. The turret was too small for the gunner to wear a parachute. In an emergency the gunner had to line up the turret properly in order to get back into the aircraft, retrieve his parachute, clip it on, then bail out.

ETA: The situation was the same for the ball gunners in the B-17.

 

[JDCAVE]

When they started putting grand slams on the Lancaster, the radio operator was taken out with his equipment, but radios had moved on, other equipment was carried to allow the pilot to do pretty much the same job.

At a constant mission loss rate of 5% of the attacking force, a crew would have about a 60% chance of surviving 10 missions, a 37% chance of surviving 20 missions, and a 21% chance of surviving 30 missions. Of course, in reality loss rates were never constant, but fluctuated over time.

A 5% loss per mission, while sounding small, is actually a huge. Assuming a starting force of 100 bombers, losing 5% of the bombers sent each mission would see that attacking force reduced to 63 bombers after just 9 missions.

The nose and dorsal turrets were removed and the crew reduced to five in order to lighten the aircraft as much as possible. That helped allow the takeoff gross weight to reach 72,000 lbs on the Lancasters modified to carry the Grand Slam bombs.

Examination of the ORB for Grand Slam Operations, is confusing. I didn't realize that the WOp position was removed. So that was new information to me. I had thought that the mid-upper turret was removed. But for some sorties the MUG position is identified . Whether the turret was there or not is not certain, but there is definitely a 6th crew member for sorties of some aircraft that carried the Grand Slam. The Grand Slam is given the code name "Special Store" whereas the Tall Boy is identified as such.

 

[JDCAVE]

That was true for the rear gunners as well. The turret was too small for the gunner to wear a parachute. In an emergency the gunner had to line up the turret properly in order to get back into the aircraft, retrieve his parachute, clip it on, then bail out.

ETA: The situation was the same for the ball gunners in the B-17.

The rear gunner wore the seat-type parachute later in the war. I'm not certain when that was.

 

[pbehn]

Examination of the ORB for Grand Slam Operations, is confusing. I didn't realize that the WOp position was removed. So that was new information to me. I had thought that the mid-upper turret was removed. But for some sorties the MUG position is identified . Whether the turret was there or not is not certain, but there is definitely a 6th crew member for sorties of some aircraft that carried the Grand Slam. The Grand Slam is given the code name "Special Store" whereas the Tall Boy is identified as such.

14th March 1945 - First 'Grand Slam' raid | RAF Memorial Flight Club
The standard crew for a B1 Special was five men with no mid-upper gunner and no wireless operator.

Its possible others went because they needed to see the blast or just wanted to.

 

[33k in the air]

Its possible others went because they needed to see the blast or just wanted to.

Might have been for training purposes. On regular Lancaster missions you can find numerous instances of a second pilot on the crew list; this apparently was for new pilots to a squadron to get some operational experience prior to commanding an aircraft of their own.

 

[pbehn]

The Halifax III (and later VI and VII) were considerably better than the II and V. The Halifax III could carry 8,000 lbs of bombs to Berlin to the Lancaster's 10,000 lbs. At short ranges, the Halifax III could lug 13,000 lbs to the target and the Lancaster 14,000 lbs.

Gee, I know of a Halifax that carried 10000 lbs of conventional bombs. Does that mean the Lanc carried 20,000 lb of conventional bombs?

We are not discussing carrying cargo and in terms of bomber command operations Berlin wasn't the furthest, there is a lot of Germany to the east and south and Poland too. The strategy of the bomber stream was for a lot of planes close together overwhelming defences by numbers AND speed. The Halifax had more weight and drag than the Lancaster, so to fly in the same bomber stream you slow down the stream or reduce the weight of the Halifax, increasing power works too but that uses more fuel. The further the mission was the less all bombers could carry eventually you can end up with the bomber carrying nothing. This is how a Stirling and a Mosquito dropped the same load on Berlin (in weight the Mosquito dropped a cookie and the Stirling was dropping proper bombs). The Stirling also carried a huge frame and turrets with crew but its bomb bay was about the same length as a Lancaster and being sub divided couldn't carry as varied a load. As the war progressed long distance raids were done by Lancasters but mixed raids were done up to the end of the war on places like Kiel and Heligoland. Submarine Pen - German Submarine Pens in World War II - The Allied Bombing Offensive.

 

[wuzak]

Conventional Lancasters could carry, 4,000 lb , 8,000 lb and 12,000 lb HC bombs. Note that the 12,000 HC bomb was 3 cookies put together, i.e. not the Tallboy.

The 12,000lb HC bomb was not 3 4,000lb HC bombs ("cookie") joined together.

It was modular, but the diameter was 38in vs 30in for the 4,000lb. The 8,000lb was made the same way as the 12,000lb, but with 2 modules instead of 3.

 

[JDCAVE]

14th March 1945 - First 'Grand Slam' raid | RAF Memorial Flight Club
The standard crew for a B1 Special was five men with no mid-upper gunner and no wireless operator.

Its possible others went because they needed to see the blast or just wanted to.

Here is the ORB. Make of it what you will.

 

[33k in the air]

The further the mission was the less all bombers could carry eventually you can end up with the bomber carrying nothing. This is how a Stirling and a Mosquito dropped the same load on Berlin (in weight the Mosquito dropped a cookie and the Stirling was dropping proper bombs).

Note that the distance versus load tradeoff applies not only to aircraft but to the individual bomber groups. 6 Group (RCAF), being the furthest north of all the Bomber Command groups, was generally flying the longest distances regardless of the particular aircraft type used by it.

 

[JDCAVE]

The Halifax III (and later VI and VII) were considerably better than the II and V. The Halifax III could carry 8,000 lbs of bombs to Berlin to the Lancaster's 10,000 lbs. At short ranges, the Halifax III could lug 13,000 lbs to the target and the Lancaster 14,000 lbs.

I don't think this is correct. Yes the III and the VII were superior to the II and V, but I've not found evidence that they carried 8,000 lbs to Berlin. Halifax III's from 578 Squadron (4-Group) carried 3,600 lbs of mixed incendiaries to Berlin on March 24, 1944, which was the last raid by Bomber Command with Main Force Squadrons. Only Mosquitoes participated in raids to Berlin after this date. Similarly on raids to Chemnitz, March 5, 1945 Halifax III's from 578 Squadron carried a mixed load of 6,000 lbs, as compared to 8,600 lbs of bombs by Lancasters of 1-Group to the same target and a full petrol load of 2,154 gallons. I cannot find a record for the fuel loads for 4-Group Halifax squadrons.

On the raid to Chemnitz (above) dad (419 Squadron out of Middleton St. George) carried 7,500 lbs of bombs and a full fuel load of 2,154 gallons of petrol. Halifaxes from 6-Group carried 2429 gallons of petrol and 4,000 lbs of bombs. The total "return route miles" from Middleton on this raid were 1844 miles, not including circuits. To Cologne, March 2, 1945 6-Group Lancasters carried 11,000 lbs of bombs and a petrol load of 1550 gallons. 6-Group Halifaxes carried 8,000 lbs of bombs and a petrol load of 1910 gallons. The total "return route miles" from Middleton on this raid were 1131 miles, not including circuits. Furthermore, Halifaxes did not participate in raids to either Dresden or Dessau, largely because after the distance, they didn't have the lifting capacity to go those distances. Dad maintained that the raid to Dessau was the longest raid undertaken "by force" by Bomber Command during the war but I have not been able to confirm this assertion. I have estimated the route from Middleton St. George to be 1921 miles.

 

[33k in the air]

I don't think this is correct. Yes the III and the VII were superior to the II and V, but I've not found evidence that they carried 8,000 lbs to Berlin.

I'm going off this footnote on p.831 from The Crucible of War 1939–1945 by Brereton Greenhous, Stephen J. Harris, William C. Johnston, and William G.P. Rawling, which is Volume III of the official history of the RCAF.

Striking power depended on payload as well as numbers. The range of an American Boeing B-17 — the workhorse of the US Eighth Air Force — carrying 4000 lbs of bombs was about 2000 miles. The Avro Lancaster could carry an internal load of 18,000 pounds without modification to the standard bomb bay, while specially modified machines could carry the 22,000-lb 'Grand Slam' over a range of 1500 miles. Even the maligned Halifax III could carry an 8000-lb 'Blockbuster' to Berlin.​

Of course, could carry is a different thing from having actually carried.

The reference to the Halifax III being able to carry the 8,000-lb bomb is interesting, because Handley Page Halifax by Anthony L. Stachiw and Andrew Tattersall also mentions the Halifax being able to carry that size of bomb. But the ORBs I've examined (admittedly a small sample) shows the largest bomb carried being the 2,000-lb size, which is what I recall reading somewhere as the largest size possible due to the particulars of the Halifax's bomb bay design. (Maybe I'm confusing that the Stirling?) Although I did come across one reference to a 4,000-lb bomb being carried by aircraft of 77 Squadron on 25/26 Feb. 1943 to Nuremberg (1 x 4,000-lb, 830 x 4-lb, 32 x 30-lb, for a total nominal weight of 8,280 lbs). It's possible the 4,000-lb bomb size was a typo and it should actually read 2,000 lbs.

The heaviest load carried to Berlin I've come across thus far is 7,160 lbs by a Halifax II of 77 Squadron on 22/23 Nov. 1943. The load consisted of 1 x 2,000-lb, 810 x 4-lb, and 64 x 30-lb bombs.

With the National Archives in the U.K. in recent months having allowed free downloads from much of its digital collection, I've been scooping up many more squadron ORBs in order to eventually make a much more comprehensive examination of actual bomb loads carried.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Is this called "Harry meets Meghan"?

While funny, I believe that's a grievous insult to both the B-17 and the Lancaster.

 

[MikeMeech]

I'm going off this footnote on p.831 from The Crucible of War 1939–1945 by Brereton Greenhous, Stephen J. Harris, William C. Johnston, and William G.P. Rawling, which is Volume III of the official history of the RCAF.

Striking power depended on payload as well as numbers. The range of an American Boeing B-17 — the workhorse of the US Eighth Air Force — carrying 4000 lbs of bombs was about 2000 miles. The Avro Lancaster could carry an internal load of 18,000 pounds without modification to the standard bomb bay, while specially modified machines could carry the 22,000-lb 'Grand Slam' over a range of 1500 miles. Even the maligned Halifax III could carry an 8000-lb 'Blockbuster' to Berlin.​

Of course, could carry is a different thing from having actually carried.

The reference to the Halifax III being able to carry the 8,000-lb bomb is interesting, because Handley Page Halifax by Anthony L. Stachiw and Andrew Tattersall also mentions the Halifax being able to carry that size of bomb. But the ORBs I've examined (admittedly a small sample) shows the largest bomb carried being the 2,000-lb size, which is what I recall reading somewhere as the largest size possible due to the particulars of the Halifax's bomb bay design. (Maybe I'm confusing that the Stirling?) Although I did come across one reference to a 4,000-lb bomb being carried by aircraft of 77 Squadron on 25/26 Feb. 1943 to Nuremberg (1 x 4,000-lb, 830 x 4-lb, 32 x 30-lb, for a total nominal weight of 8,280 lbs). It's possible the 4,000-lb bomb size was a typo and it should actually read 2,000 lbs.

The heaviest load carried to Berlin I've come across thus far is 7,160 lbs by a Halifax II of 77 Squadron on 22/23 Nov. 1943. The load consisted of 1 x 2,000-lb, 810 x 4-lb, and 64 x 30-lb bombs.

With the National Archives in the U.K. in recent months having allowed free downloads from much of its digital collection, I've been scooping up many more squadron ORBs in order to eventually make a much more comprehensive examination of actual bomb loads carried.

Hi

According to 'The Bomber Command War Diaries' by Middlebrook & Everitt, page 255, an attack on Essen 10/11 April, 1942 resulted in:

"Bomber Command's first 8,000-lb bomb was dropped during this raid by the 76 Squadron Halifax of Pilot Officer M. Renaut, whose aircraft was badly damaged by flak. It is not known where Renaut's bomb fell."

This information is also contained in 'Bombs Gone' by MacBean & Hogben on page 79.

I hope that is of interest.

 

[Milosh]

The Halifax I mentioned earlier was a MkIII and was lost without trace on a mission to Essen, late Oct '44. Its bomb load was:
6 x 500 lb MC bomb
1 x 2000 lb HC bomb
5 x 1000 lb SAP bomb

 

[33k in the air]

Hi

According to 'The Bomber Command War Diaries' by Middlebrook & Everitt, page 255, an attack on Essen 10/11 April, 1942 resulted in:

"Bomber Command's first 8,000-lb bomb was dropped during this raid by the 76 Squadron Halifax of Pilot Officer M. Renaut, whose aircraft was badly damaged by flak. It is not known where Renaut's bomb fell."

This information is also contained in 'Bombs Gone' by MacBean & Hogben on page 79.

I hope that is of interest.

More data is always of interest.

Unfortunately, the ORBs for 76 Squadron do not list the bomb loads carried. At least, none of the ones I checked did so. (Whether an ORB listed the bomb loads carried is rather hit or miss. Some listed loads consistently, others intermittently, and yet others not at all.)

 

[fastmongrel]

I have read somewhere that the Halifax could only carry the 8,000 pound blockbuster semi externally. The centre sections of the bomb doors couldn't close over the bombs so they were removed and just the outer door sections closing till they were almost touching the bomb. It must have played hell with range and speed.

 

[fastmongrel]

This claims to be a photo of a Halifax with 2 X 4,000lb bombs

 

[SaparotRob]

Was the Halifax a tail dragger? That is neither a B-24 nor a B-25. Lockheed Hudson is right out.