Lancaster as an escorted, daylight bomber ala B-17/24?
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More data is always of interest.
Unfortunately, the ORBs for 76 Squadron do not list the bomb loads carried. At least, none of the ones I checked did so. (Whether an ORB listed the bomb loads carried is rather hit or miss. Some listed loads consistently, others intermittently, and yet others not at all.)
Yes, and they are often incorrect, I have found. When discrepancies come up, I check the ORB's of similar squadrons within a group. Similarly, the petrol loads are not always listed in some group "Form B's". Apparently some groups erred on the side of caution on petrol loads and others tried to maximize bomb loads at the expense of petrol. My sources for this are the ORS information summarized by Basil Dickens.
jim
Do you know the Squadron for this a/c? It would be interesting to compare this load with those from other squadrons.
Jim
A photo caption from page 98 96, of Mason's The Secret Years:
"136 Left: Halifax I1 V9985
in February 1943 with
swollen bomb doors to
accommodate the 8,000 lb
'Cookie' bomb. - This
arrangement obviated the
need for conventional doors
to be partially open when
the large bomb was carried;
no significant improvement
in performance resulted.
There is no upper turret, but
beam gun positions are
fitted. Visible in the engine
nacelles are the matrices for
the radiator and oil cooler,
while on the outer panels
can be seen the ice guards
over the air intakes. The
solid-looking Messier
undercarriage supports the
aircraft. Four raid markings
on the nose reflect earlier
Service, probably with No
10 Squadron A&AEE
11277"
"136 Left: Halifax I1 V9985
in February 1943 with
swollen bomb doors to
accommodate the 8,000 lb
'Cookie' bomb. - This
arrangement obviated the
need for conventional doors
to be partially open when
the large bomb was carried;
no significant improvement
in performance resulted.
There is no upper turret, but
beam gun positions are
fitted. Visible in the engine
nacelles are the matrices for
the radiator and oil cooler,
while on the outer panels
can be seen the ice guards
over the air intakes. The
solid-looking Messier
undercarriage supports the
aircraft. Four raid markings
on the nose reflect earlier
Service, probably with No
10 Squadron A&AEE
11277"
Last edited:
wuzak
Captain
The Lancaster also needed "swollen" bomb bay doors to carry the 38in diameter 8,000lb and 12,000lb HC bombs, as well as the Tallboy (also 38in diameter).
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Occasionally there are obvious typos, so it's not hard to figure out what it should be. Other times, however, it's not so obvious. (That said, being able to view such records decades after the fact from an ocean away is an amazing aspect of our times.)
Can you point to any online sources with such fuel data? I'd be quite interested in seeing such figures. I've only ever come across one site that had that sort of information, which was for 44 Squadron.
I read somewhere that eventually about one-third of the Lancasters in Bomber Command were fitted with such bulged bomb bay doors. Does anyone have any hard data on the squadrons which fielded such modified Lancasters and the numbers involved?
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Staff Sergeant
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Looking at my old file of bomb load data, I see similar loads listed for 51 Squadron for missions to Essen using the Halifax III.
23/24 October 1943: 1 x 2000 lb, 6 x 1,000 lb, 3 x 500 lb
29/30 November 1944: 1 x 2000 lb, 4 x 1,000 lb, 7 x 500 lb
Putting swollen doors on a Halifax was a different proposition to a Lancaster. www.williammaloney.com/Aviation/RCAFRoyalCanadianAirForceMuseum/HandleyPageHalifax/pages/14HalifaxMainGear.htm
429
Why did the Halifax have less performance? Which Halifax. Perhaps The Hercules engines which did nothing for the Lancaster II
The B17 could carry 10,000lbs of bomb internally but they were armour piercing bombs. For GP bombs 6 x 1000lbs, 12 x 500lbs gave the 6000lbs internal loadout.
B-17G Standard Aircraft Characteristics (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)
It could do the 10,000lb load at 195 knots for 600 nautical miles, since Berlin was 516 nautical miles from London it was in range. If speed was reduced to 172 knots range increased to 700 nautical miles. If only 6000 lbs was carried range increased markedly
"By the time the Hercules Engined Lancaster Mk II entered service in October 1942, the threat to the Merlin supply was already receding. Initial service tests with No. 61 Squadron early in 1943 reveals one serious limitation – it had an unexpectedly low service ceiling. On its first test, against Essen on 11/12 January, two Mk IIs joined a force of Mk Is. While the Mk I operated at 22,000 feet, the best the Mk II could achieve was an altitude of 18,400 feet, while the second aircraft only reached 14,000 feet!
After tests were complete, the Mk II was issued to No. 115 Squadron, in No. 5 Group. Despite the altitude problems, the Lancaster Mk II was a welcome improvement on their Wellingtons. In service the Mk II was slightly more robust than the Mk I, lacking the extensive liquid cooling systems needed by the Merlins, although at the lower altitude this would be put to the test. An additional aid to survival was the installation of a FN64 ventral turret below the aircraft, although this was sometimes removed to save weight.
A second problem with the Mk II was that it could only carry 14,000 lbs of bombs, compared to the 18,000 of the Mk I. Ironically, the Lancaster Mk II had a performance similar to the Merlin XX powered Halifax Mk II. By the end of 1943 the Lancaster Mk II was being phased out. "
The B17 could carry 10,000lbs of bomb internally but they were armour piercing bombs. For GP bombs 6 x 1000lbs, 12 x 500lbs gave the 6000lbs internal loadout.
B-17G Standard Aircraft Characteristics (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)
It could do the 10,000lb load at 195 knots for 600 nautical miles, since Berlin was 516 nautical miles from London it was in range. If speed was reduced to 172 knots range increased to 700 nautical miles. If only 6000 lbs was carried range increased markedly
"By the time the Hercules Engined Lancaster Mk II entered service in October 1942, the threat to the Merlin supply was already receding. Initial service tests with No. 61 Squadron early in 1943 reveals one serious limitation – it had an unexpectedly low service ceiling. On its first test, against Essen on 11/12 January, two Mk IIs joined a force of Mk Is. While the Mk I operated at 22,000 feet, the best the Mk II could achieve was an altitude of 18,400 feet, while the second aircraft only reached 14,000 feet!
After tests were complete, the Mk II was issued to No. 115 Squadron, in No. 5 Group. Despite the altitude problems, the Lancaster Mk II was a welcome improvement on their Wellingtons. In service the Mk II was slightly more robust than the Mk I, lacking the extensive liquid cooling systems needed by the Merlins, although at the lower altitude this would be put to the test. An additional aid to survival was the installation of a FN64 ventral turret below the aircraft, although this was sometimes removed to save weight.
A second problem with the Mk II was that it could only carry 14,000 lbs of bombs, compared to the 18,000 of the Mk I. Ironically, the Lancaster Mk II had a performance similar to the Merlin XX powered Halifax Mk II. By the end of 1943 the Lancaster Mk II was being phased out. "
buffnut453
Captain
Those are purely theoretical ranges that bear no relation to operational range. It to a LONG time for the various bombardment groups to get airborne and formate on each other. That process burned a lot of fuel. From everything I've seen, 4,000lbs was the typical B-17 bomb load when hitting Berlin.
You have edited the text from here Avro Lancaster Mk II Maybe the answer to this problem is the generic use of the term "Hercules", The first Hercules engines were available in 1939 as the 1,290 hp (960 kW) Hercules I, soon improved to 1,375 hp (1,025 kW) in the Hercules II. The major version was the Hercules VI which delivered 1,650 hp (1,230 kW), and the late-war Hercules XVII produced 1,735 hp (1,294 kW).
And didn't give the reference source, again.
I was quoting wiki, I didn't selectively edit bits out.
Was not referring to you.
This is where Wiki probably got the text, Subject Index: Handley Page Halifax (historyofwar.org)
This is where Wiki probably got the text, Subject Index: Handley Page Halifax (historyofwar.org)
Glider
Captain
If it helps from Janes fighting aircraft of WW2, page 272
Hercules Vi and XVI
Take off 1,615hp
Max economical cruise 1,020 at 7,500ft, 920 at 17,750
Hercules VII and XVII
Take off 1,725hp
Max Economical cruise 1,080 at 7,000ft
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The B-17's max. internal capacity was 9,600 pounds (4,800 pounds per side) but could carry up to 12,000 pounds max. if the external racks were used.
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Note that generally one to two hours was required for formation assembly before the B-17s (and B-24s) would set off for the target. That's one to two hours not available for cruising toward the target, which naturally shortens the achievable combat radius.
As related in Target Berlin, the first aircraft for the 6 March 1944 mission took off at 7:45 AM; it wasn't until 10:01 AM that the leading elements of the raid left the British coast.
Target Berlin has the bomb loads for the mission as 5,000 lbs for the B-17s (12 x 500 lb GP, with some aircraft instead carrying 42 x 100 lb incendiaries) while the B-24s carried 6,000 lbs (12 x 500 lb GP, or 52 x 100 lb incendiaries in some aircraft; note that the "100 lb" incendiary actually only weighed about 70 lbs).
Unfortunately, there don't seem to be anywhere near the same amount of digitized USAAF squadron reports like there are for RAF squadrons, but from the few squadrons I've been able to examine, B-17 bomb loads were usually 5,000 or 6,000 lbs.
buffnut453
Captain
Thanks for the clarification on B-17 bomb loads. I'll admit I seem to have slightly underestimated the weight of ordnance. Regardless, the details you provided still destroy the myth that the B-17 could carry 10,000lbs to Berlin under operational conditions.
This should give a general indication what other bomber carried, 303rd BG Combat Missions and Reports
