Lend Lease for Britain

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The Ca4 woomera

This one is admittedly a prototype, but it shows what might have been, had the Americans not made available B-25s, B-26s and Liberators in such numbers, and had the ddomestically produced Beaforts not been so successful

September 19 1941 saw the first flight of an Australian designed aircraft that contained some interesting and indeed innovative features. The aircraft, officially known as the Wackett bomber, was designated the CAC-CA-4.
It came about because of a perceived need to replace the Beaufort with an aircraft to meet the immediate needs of RAAF development specification no. 241. This called for an aircraft suitable for reconnaissance and general bombing, with a capability for torpedo delivery and dive bombing.

Wackett's design was for a low wing, twin engine, light bomber with a crew of three. It featured four forward firing machine guns operated by the pilot, two remote controlled twin machine gun barbettes mounted on the rear of the engine nacelles, engine nacelles that as well as housing the undercarriage, carried two 250 lb bombs. Under the fuselage were mounting points for two torpedoes, (either of which could be replaced by a 293 gallon drop tank) or two 500 lb bombs, with a provision for four 25 lb bombs under each wing.
The second pilot had his own instrument panel and a demountable control column, and was expected to operate the remote barbettes through the use of a sighting periscope. The third crew member was the bomb aimer/navigator. He was placed in the lower rear fuselage and had a window between his feet as well as triangular windows in the fuselage for navigation. He was also equipped with a free slung machine gun that could be fired from the ventral step.

The bomber was powered by by two P&W twin wasp R-1830-S3C3-G radials. Six fuel tanks were an integral part of the centre section wing construction, causing headaches for the designers as this had never before been done on an Australian designed machine. The wings were of stressed skin construction, with the control surfaces being fabric covered aft of the spar, and dynamically balanced. The cockpit and nose of the aircraft were metal skinned, and the fuselage was canvas covered ply.

The initial flight tests showed disappointing response to the controls with the elevator being almost ineffectual, and severe engine overheating. Despite this it was agreed that the aircraft's general handling was on par with contemporary machines. Testing and modifications continued and unexpectedly showed up another feature that Wackett claimed was deliberate, but had never mentioned before. During a flight to show the CA4 to the prime minister and other defence officials, the undercarriage failed and a wheels up landing was made. The machine stopped in 100 yards with no structural damage, and only minor damage to the engines. In fact it was removed from the strip by lifting it onto it's undamaged undercarriage and towing it away. Repairs only took two days, and inspection revealed that the failure had been caused by an act of sabotage.

April 20 1942 saw the RAAF accept the Wackett bomber for trials. The machine proved capable but had features that were unacceptable to the military, such as the remote aiming and firing system. However in competition with the Beaufort VIII it proved superior in speed, armament, ordinance carrying capacity and range, with similar handling. The Beaufighter came closer, but again lost to armament, load and range. The RAAF was sufficiently impressed with the CA4 to order 105 CA-11 Woomera bombers on March 8 1942.

Unfortunately the only CA-4 was destroyed when it exploded in flight due to a fault in a feathering switch and a leaking fuel tank on 15 January 1943.

The Woomera was essentially the same aircraft but it carried all the modifications that had been made to the CA-4, plus some redesign work. The canopy was extended to cover the whole crew area, the tail and rudder was completely redesigned, the deck of the fuselage cut down, and more dihedral put into the outer wing sections. The pilots armament was modified to include two cannon and two machine guns.

At this time the CAC factory was busily completing Wirraway orders, and the new Boomerang. It had also transpired that the role of twin engined aircraft had changed in the course of the development of the Woomera. The need for dive/torpedo bombers had been passed in favour of heavily armed medium bombers, which the RAAF had available in the form of the Mitchell and Boston. An updated and more powerful version known as CA-11a was mooted, but the idea was abandoned. Add this to the promise of Liberators and the project was doomed. The original order for 105 machines was reduced to 20. However, like the CA-15 the Woomera was to become a "project" rather than a contender.

This notwithstanding, the first flight of the CA-11 was considered a success. The difficulties in controlling the machine on the ground had gone, as had the lack of feel and control on the elevators and rudder. However the ailerons despite being identical to those on the CA-4 were delightful at flying speed, but decidedly unsatisfactory at low speed. This coupled with a worrying vibration caused the CAC test pilot G.A. Board some worry. Further test flights followed, with most of the problems being quickly rectified, only the vibration and rudder overbalance needing attention. During dive tests a severe vibration was experienced, followed by difficulty in raising the nose due to lack of stick movement. Board flew the aircraft slowly home and eventually had to fly it onto the strip, being unable to lower the tail. Post flight inspection showed that the vibration had caused the elevator trim tab to break and jam the control.

Sqn. Ldr. Cuming of 1 A.P.U was brought in to give a second opinion as he had flown the CA-4. Board flew chase in a Boomerang and noticed that the tailplane tips were vibrating through an arc of 6 inches, and that the whole of the fuselage rear of the navigators position was vibrating torsionally. This was obviously an aerodynamic problem, but it had not shown up in wind tunnel tests. It was finally traced to the disturbance of airflow caused by the turrets on the rear of the engine nacelles striking the underside of the tailplane, and rectified by giving the tailplane a dihedral of 12 degrees.

By this stage, the second Woomera was almost complete, only wanting engines, and a further six were partially constructed. Then, in the first week of September 1944, the program was cancelled. Test flights continued for another twelve months, with the test aircraft being converted to components in January 1946.


The general characteristics of the Ca-4 were:

General characteristics
Crew: 3 (pilot, bomb aimer/navigator, rear gunner)
Length: 39 ft 7 in (12.07 m)
Wingspan: 59 ft 2½ in (18.05 m)
Height: 18 ft 2 in (5.53 m)
Wing area: 440 ft² (40.9 m²)
Empty weight: 12,756 lb (5,798 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 22,885 lb (10,402 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Pratt Whitney R-1830-S3C3-G Twin Wasp 14-cylinder two-row radial engine, 1,200 hp (895 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 282 mph (454 km/h, 245 knots)
Range: 2,225 mi (3,580 km, 1,934 km) (with external tank and one torpedo)
Service ceiling: 23,500 ft (7,165 m)
Rate of climb: 2,090 ft/min (10.6 m/s)
Armament
Guns:
2 × .303 machine guns in nose
2 × 20 mm Hispano cannons in nose
2 × .303 machine guns in rear firing barbettes
1 x .303 machine gun in ventral position

Bombs:
4× 250 lb (113 kg) bombs
2× 500 lb (224 kg) bombs
2× torpedoes and 4 × 25 lb (13 kg) bombs under wings

I have only one photo
 

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These backward Australians....I dont know.

Michael you are doing a very poor job of convincing me that Australians were a bunch backward hicks!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Love the CA-15 pictures, some of which I have never seen.

Keep it up, you are doing an excellent job using the shining light of truth to illuminate the darkness of ignorance.
 
Id love to see what the other Dominion nationalities designed and/or built. I know that they built Cruiser trank Ram and the turretless APC version of the same. I know they built Blenheims and 12 gun Hurricanes (I think). I know they built 900000 motor vehicles, ships, merchant shipping and lord knows what else. Any of you Canucks out there care to show of your national hardware (somehow that just sounds so wrong doesnt it!!!!!!!)
 
Wow i leave and all hell breaks loose .Parsifal do you get paid by the post?:D
The question is how much historical production would have to fall if american raw materials , machinery and technology were not available through LL .Like the good prof said in the interview you linked the war effort would have to be SCALED DOWN.Now what do you think he meant by that? Cryptic statement isn't it ? Do you understand what that means in the middle of a war? Britain would be unable to continue.
Guess he didn't know that you could easily turn the commonwealth into a self sustained autarchic block...in the middle of a war...a war going very badly for Britain...:D:D:D.Ask yourself again why your armored forces had 2/3 M4 tanks .It's because the Australians could make tanks:lol:

@maltby : i wonder what would happen if i said the same about you i doubt the admin would pretend not to see it.
 
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Wow i leave and all hell breaks loose .Parsifal do you get paid by the post?:D
The question is how much historical production would have to fall if american raw materials , machinery and technology were not available through LL .Like the good prof said in the interview you linked the war effort would have to be SCALED DOWN.Now what do you think he meant by that? Cryptic statement isn't it ? Do you understand what that means in the middle of a war? Britain would be unable to continue.
Guess he didn't know that you could easily turn the commonwealth into a self sustained autarchic block...in the middle of a war...a war going very badly for Britain...:D:D:D.Ask yourself again why your armored forces had 2/3 M4 tanks .It's because the Australians could make tanks:lol:

In the first instance I would simply say that is not the object of your original post. Your original position on this was that without Lend Lease Britain was sunk, not that without any US production what would be the outcome. Your about as tricky as a wombat in a burrow arent you. US production cannot be factored out of the global industrial equation. Thats very similar to saying, what would happen to the Axis of Germany was not there.

The second thing that you tried to say was the Dominions were as cash strapped as Britain. As you now know, but cannot admit, the dominions were anything but like that. Australia, and I will hazard, Canada, and all the other Dominions were resource rich nations, in which the demands for resources in the lead up to war far outstripped supply. These were the days we were getting a pound for a lb of wool, and nobody but Australia could produce top quality merino fleeces. It was the days when Canadian wheat and corn was in massive demand, and all the other resource. So, unless the US was going to disappear off the face of the earth, or we were cut off by blockade from the US, the situation you are describing was never going to happen.

Now, you are also implying that we were dependant in our immediate war industries for components from the US. Somewhat true, but substantially untrue, especially for defence industries and certainly not a major issue that would at all be unsolvable. Moreover, for non-military items like foodstuffs and the like,m the US was far more dependant on us than we were on them In 1940-44 we were indigenously producing the twin wasp as well as chev motors and a whole lot of other components. In 1942, when our communications to the US were under some threat from the Japanese, the Australians were preparing to build their indigenous fighter forces (and bombers for that matter) completely from home production. So in relaity, in answer to your question about what would happen to our war production if we were threatened with a cutoff from the US, it goes up actually

What you are effectively saying is a nonsense....essentially what would happen if the US didnt exist, or alternatively what would happen if we lost the war and couldnt trade with our overseas partners. Under those circumstance, if everyone else has lost, then of course we have lost.

Incidentally, you are at it again and trying to twist the words of Andrew Clark to suit your own ends. His interview is very clear, without LL there would be a reduction of availble resource to the British military , not a cessation of production altogether. And sorry to burst your bubble but for some items there was a dependance by the US on foreign components and foreign imports as much as any other country.

So, stop trying to shift the goal posts yet again into the realm of the ridiculous. Just so everyone is clear, your position was/is, if Britain did not receive lend lease her production and ability to fight would collapse. You also tried to say that the Dominions were in as bad a financial position as the British.

And, to further clarify, Clark disagrees that Britiain was bankrupt. he says that were running out of liquid assets, that is not bankrupt. Financial receipt were still coming into the country, the country was still churning out massive amnounts of equipment. Thats not bankrupt, or facing economic ruin at all, its financial strain, which means they cannot buy some of the hardware that they would like (amounting to less than 10% of their total forces in one TO at least...see below)

As a supplemental to that, you tried to say that in the Middle East the Allied air forces prior to 1941 were made up of about 33% US material. If you go back and have a look at that thread, Ive actually calculated the contribution to June 1941, which is the time frame we were trying to determine (unlike some, I dont shift from the original positions or statements until we are done on that issue). In fact the LL contribution in terms of airpower at least amounted to just over 10%. Given the massive reserves of equipment the UK enjoyed thats going to make no difference at all to their force projection. The same can be said about the other bnits of hardware that you mentioned (tanks etc)
 
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Guys some reat stuff there about Australian Canadian and others achievements.

I would like to make four points.

1 In WWII it is impossible to separate the UK from the rest of the commonwealth. For example the key battle in 1940 was the BoB, in that the RAF were lead by Dowding but the key "general" was Air Chief Marshall Keith Park, a New Zealander.

2 A country can fight on providing it can obtain weapons it doesnt have to produce them itself, look at Iran and Iraq for example whos war lasted for years with most of the hardware being made elsewhere.

3 Lend lease was obviously mutual benefit the Battle of the Atlantic was won with hardware and technologies and men from both sides. It is impossible to fight such a battle from one side only. As others have pointed out the battle of the Atlantic wasnt just to solve a British problem, thousands of tons of shipping went down in sight of the American coast.

4 True America provided the Sherman but the USA didnt send over any Mulberry harbours or flexible pipelines which were as key to D Day as the tank itself. It makes more sense to send a tank across the Atlantic than the hundreds of tons of ore needed to build it in Britain.
 
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Mustang

I couldnt agree more, LL was a pooling of resources, that benefitted both sides, and made both sides stronger. In the shorter term, it benefitted Britain more than it benefitted the US, In the longer terms it was the other way round. I would never deny that viewed from the overall duration, the british benefitted greatly in their war effort by having LL. It was cheaper to use LL equipment in many cases. But that is not the argument that was put, and it continues to rage

The original argument that led to this whole fraccus was that without "US Charity" Britain could not continue to fight and would be forced to surrender. I kid you not. The argument behind this was that by Septemeber 1940, Britain was financially bankrupt and could not continue production without lend lease. Dont ask me to make that comnnection, the argument of the other side is totalky without logic, but they continue with it regardless.

The argumnent was then extended to say that the entire Commonwealth was in the same boat. I have s[ent several pages of this thread, and the other one, showing this to not the case.

Then the argument that was attempted was that the dominions were incapable or lacked the technological base to produce anything. That still remains an element of the argument.

Finally having reached a point of near total fantasy, we are now being told "well what would you do if there was no allied production. Clearly thats a metamorphosis of the original argument. Without any US production, clearly the allies are in a world of hurt, but exactly how trhere would be nbo US production, or how the parameters of the argument all of a sudden could be changed to that have not been explained. Its a moving feast, with no rules, no logic and no evidence '
 
Mustang

I couldnt agree more, LL was a pooling of resources, that benefitted both sides, and made both sides stronger. In the shorter term, it benefitted Britain more than it benefitted the US, In the longer terms it was the other way round. I would never deny that viewed from the overall duration, the british benefitted greatly in their war effort by having LL.


That is the precise point I have made in the thread.
That's the whole point of being 'allies'.
Why ctrian cannot see this is beyond me....

I found this too:
http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/ww2/homefront/overview.html

One in all in.

Cheers
John
 
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Let's continue the discussion here.

Continued from where?
Link please?

That is true but what about industrial capacity?
See how complicated it gets? Especially during a WAR.


medium tanks? (not prototype REAL ones) Yes. Sentinal tanks were built in Australia using local-built Caddilac engines.
Sentinel tank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AA guns ? AT guns? Yes. See Parsifal's post above

Trucks? Yes Holden (GM) produced trucks and other items in Australia for the war effort.

Holden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Holden's second full-scale car factory, located in Fishermans Bend (Port Melbourne), was completed in 1936, with construction beginning in 1939 on a new plant in Pagewood, New South Wales.[6] However, World War II delayed car production with efforts shifted to the construction of vehicle bodies, field guns, aircraft and engines

100 octane fuel? Yes* in the Australian theater
The Allies in 1940 had 3 major overseas refineries producing 100 octane fuel, in Aruba, Abadan (Persia) and at Palembang Indonesia


Could they build high performance engines? Yes The P W - R-1340 Wasp was built in Australia.

Browsing by theme 'Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC) R-1340 Wasp Aero Engine' - Museum Victoria
In October 1937, the United Aircraft Corporation, which had taken over Pratt Whitney, announced that a licencing agreement had been reached with the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation in Australia for the production of R-1340 engines to be fitted to the CAC Wirraway aircraft for the Royal Australian Air Force. The first locally-built engine appeared in January 1939. A total of 680 engines were built by CAC up to 1943

Can they build all the components? Yes


I can't talk for Australia but if you check this out it might surpride you

Canadian industrial production during the Second World war.

Canada had industries during the war? :eek:
Really? :p

I thought they were just a bunch of illiterate fur-trappers.... :lol:
 
Id love to see what the other Dominion nationalities designed and/or built. I know that they built Cruiser trank Ram and the turretless APC version of the same. I know they built Blenheims and 12 gun Hurricanes (I think). I know they built 900000 motor vehicles, ships, merchant shipping and lord knows what else. Any of you Canucks out there care to show of your national hardware (somehow that just sounds so wrong doesnt it!!!!!!!)

Canada also built Hampden bombers, Lancasters and Helldivers, not to mention Anson's, Harvards etc.
They also built the Grizzly tank in 1943, an improved version of the Sherman.

Canada's capacity for tank production alone would be enough to supply the entire Commonwealth.
 
Canada also built Hampden bombers, Lancasters and Helldivers, not to mention Anson's, Harvards etc.
They also built the Grizzly tank in 1943, an improved version of the Sherman.

Canada's capacity for tank production alone would be enough to supply the entire Commonwealth.

Thank the lord...the cavalry has arrived....youve been sorely missed FB
 
@maltby : i wonder what would happen if i said the same about you i doubt the admin would pretend not to see it.

Do you have a problem?

You are the one that keeps making smart ass comments! You are the first one to make insulting remarks to other members. When they respond to you in the same way, you get all butt hurt and play the "Oh poor me" card.

1. We treat everyone here the same. If another member of the forum makes smart ass remarks we warn them as well. When a member ignores the warnings they get called out personally.
2. You are not being treated any differently than anyone here.
3. You are doing a goo job however at singling yourself out.
4. If you have a problem with the way we run this forum, then please bring it up with us in a PM.

5. Quite the "Oh poor me routine". It is not going to get your anywhere.
 
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Huh ? You didn't even make an effort to control them, look either try to keep everyone on the same level or simply ban people who don't agree with you ,you can't have it both ways .YOU are the admin not me.
 
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Huh ? You didn't even make an effort to control them, look either try to keep everyone on the same level or simply ban people who don't agree with you ,you can't have it both ways .YOU are the admin not me.

I don't ban anyone I don't agree with, just because I don't agree with them. Otherwise you would be gone.

I am warning you because I am sick of your snide comments! My suggestion to you is this:

Quit the comments and debate the topic like an adult. Either that or move on!
 
By the way did you put the avatar pic?
 

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