Lend Lease for Britain

[buffnut453]

Entirely agree, Evanglider. How often we forget just how big the team was that defeated the Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini - Poles, Czechs, French, Dutch, Danes, Belgians, Norwegians, Greeks, and many others (and not forgetting the internal opposition and resistance movements) in addition to the main powers of the US and the British Commonwealth.

 

[parsifal]

The issue was more primeval than that. he hated being shown any evidence of allied competence or success. You know the type.

I know i am a little one eyed in terms of the allies winning. But there is a difference between having a bias, and having a prejudice. this guy was prejuduced, he came here with the objective of bad mouthing anythin favourable to the allies, and was quite prpred to insult anyone, say anything and ignore cold reality to achieve that objective.

Trouble for him is, ther are people here who direct links back to that terrible war, are proud of their national heritage, and just wont say die when people start to put down the people and values that their country's stand for. I know that sounds trite and precious, but its the truth

 

[Njaco]

Back on topic (somewhat) - I was surprised to learn that the US really put its effort into Lend-Lease only after Britain showed it was worth it after the BoB.

 

[buffnut453]

Njaco,

I think you're picking up on the wrong cues. By the time of Lend Lease, the BoB was well and truly finished and we were well into the challenges of 1941. The key issue was the British Commonwealth was standing alone without any European allies against Facist-run Germany and Italy, two of the largest militaries in the world. Japan was also becoming increasingly vocal. The military was effectively leading Japan's drive towards further expansionism in the Far East, and saw as easy targets the rump colonies of the European powers that had been overrun by German armed might. The only powers who could stop Japan were Britain and America. Without Britain, America had to do it all alone, which simply wasn't conceivable. When it became apparent that British gold reserves were running out, making it difficult for her to continue buying US armaments, the options were to leave Britain hanging out to dry or to find some way of helping. Lend Lease was the implementation of the latter approach.

 

[Njaco]

I might be. I remember reading that close to the end of BoB Roosevelt was more than convinced that the US should do all we could for the UK.

 

[buffnut453]

Undoubtedly true. The dawning realisation in America that the negativity of Mr Kennedy was somewhat misplaced undoubtedly helped bring the US and UK closer.

 

[Mustang nut]

Undoubtedly true. The dawning realisation in America that the negativity of Mr Kennedy was somewhat misplaced undoubtedly helped bring the US and UK closer.

I think there were many sides to it. Britain was doing better than many predicted and it was becoming more obvious thet Germany would attack the Soviet Union and not clear who would win. If the Soviets capitualted as many thought they would it would leave the whole world in a very bad place.

 

[Wildcat]

Very interesting discussion guys. For those interested in the Australian side of things, I recommend having a read through the Official History here.
Australia in the War of 1939

 

[parsifal]

That is very intersting Wildcat. I wish you had been around a couple of days ago. This stuff was sorely needed. The chapter dealing with the Australian Tank development was particulalry intersting for me. It shows how Australia went from nothing to some of the most advanced heavy engineering projects we have ever attempted ever. I doubt we could adapt our current industries to build AFVs of any kind in the way they were in 1940-41. I like the bit in Chapter 14 where the hull fabrication plant at Kendal is described as the most advanced of its kind in the Commonwealth

Its a great read for anyone interested. I highly recommend havbing alook at Wildcats attachments (that is just sooo wrong)

 

[michaelmaltby]

Sorry I missed the dance ..... Ctrain is a political operator. Good riddance.

Some Canadian Lend Lease - and Reverse Lend Lease to the USA :

- Toronto built Lancaster and Mosquito
- US Mosquito Toronto
- US Navy Flower Class corvette (Collingwood, Ontario-built)
- Toronto (Inglis-appliance-built) bren guns
- Long Branch built Sten
- CMP (Canadian Military Pattern) truck (GM and Ford)
- deserted CMP artillery tractor today (Yukon - used as log skidders)
- modified Chevy for the LRDG in N. Africa
- Valentine tanks from Montreal locomotive works for Russia - november 1941 (USA isn't a war yet)
- and .... an interesting pdf file on Montreal RAM tank manufacturing.

Go Commonwealth .....

MM

 

[parsifal]

Sorry I missed the dance ..... Ctrain is a political operator. Good riddance.

Some Canadian Lend Lease - and Reverse Lend Lease to the USA :

- Toronto built Lancaster and Mosquito
- US Mosquito Toronto
- US Navy Flower Class corvette (Collingwood, Ontario-built)
- Toronto (Inglis-appliance-built) bren guns
- Long Branch built Sten
- CMP (Canadian Military Pattern) truck (GM and Ford)
- deserted CMP artillery tractor today (Yukon - used as log skidders)
- modified Chevy for the LRDG in N. Africa
- Valentine tanks from Montreal locomotive works for Russia - november 1941 (USA isn't a war yet)
- and .... an interesting pdf file on Montreal RAM tank manufacturing.

Go Commonwealth .....

MM

Our recently departed friend made much of the british dependance on Shermans and Grants in North Africa.

Could the RAM have acted as a substitute for these Tanks, and could output of RAMs and the Valentines have been increased fo you think.

I also thought that the Valentine could be fitted with a US style 75mm gun, similar to the Shermans. Any truth to that Mike?

 

[Mustang nut]

There has been some great stuff posted here, Ive certainly learned a lot. Thanks

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Could the RAM have acted as a substitute for these Tanks, and could output of RAMs and the Valentines have been increased fo you think.

I also thought that the Valentine could be fitted with a US style 75mm gun, similar to the Shermans. Any truth to that Mike?"

I am going to pass on answering that Parsifal because I just don't know. The tanks were built by locomotive works (geared for both production and overhauls) so they may NOT have been as upwardly 'scaleable' as Ford, GM or Chrysler . But the Soviets liked the Canadian Valentines and lots of RAM's were used - including the Kangaroo RAM (a turret-less APC used by Canadian General Guy Simmons for the nighttime assault on Verriers Ridge attacking Caen

I left off my list Hurricanes .... build in Fort William Ontario (Thunder Bay now) by Canada Car and Foundry, under the guidance of Elsie McGill - a remarkable woman - fired by Curtis after the HellDiver started production in Ft W). And lots of PBY Canso's built by Boeing Canada in Montreal (and Vancouver).

MM

 

[Lighthunmust]

Undoubtedly true. The dawning realisation in America that the negativity of Mr Kennedy was somewhat misplaced undoubtedly helped bring the US and UK closer.

My opinion is you are being charitable with the use of the word "negativity" to describe Joseph Kennedy's outright bigotry tainted evaluation of the British. It is interesting how much that his son John differed from him.

I can't adequately express how great it has been reading all the illuminatingly detailed posts on the realities of lend-lease far beyond what I had based my agreeing opinion on. In someways I think I owe a thank you to Ctrian just for making it all happen. How ironic

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... I think I owe a thank you to Ctrian just for making it all happen. How ironic ..."

For sure ..... it's a great topic.

MM

 

[Njaco]

Didn't Ford or GM have a plant in Canada that produced some of the Jeeps or 2 1/2 ton trucks?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Everyone Ctrian is no longer here, that means there is no need to talk about him either. Move along now...

 

[michaelmaltby]

No souvenir buttons off his tunic, Sarge ......?

MM

 

[Lighthunmust]

Sorry about the faux pas Adler. It was an innocently made comment. Will not happen again.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Didn't Ford or GM have a plant in Canada that produced some of the Jeeps or 2 1/2 ton trucks?"

Don't think so Njaco, . The famous deuce-and-a-half trucks were US-made: GM, Studebaker, International, etc. The Canadian trucks were right-hand drive and built to Commonwealth (not North American) standards. In Canada, Chrysler built a 3/4 ton 4x4 that was called (in the US) a weapons carrier and was also widely used as an ambulance. More important possibly, Chrysler built truck body workshops totally equipped with lathes or whatever, these bodies with tools could just be dropped onto the frame of the CMP tandems built by Ford or GM and were supplied to the Commonwealth and to the Soviets (via Iran). Civilian-style Dodge trucks were also made by Dodge (Fargo) in Canada. Ford made jeeps but I can't confirm that any were made by Ford Canada.

I read yesterday that by the Battle of El Alamein in 1941 virtually 80% of Commonwealth transport in North Africa was made in Canada.

Ford Canada (and US) also made tracked Bren Gun carriers (Universal Carrier) by the 1,000's.

Cheers,

MM