LW adopts He-112 as a second fighter: pros cons

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Hello, gents,
    As widely known, the He-112 lost the competition for the Luftwaffe's new fighter vs. Bf-109. Suppose the LWdecides to give Heinkel a chance, ordering it in limited production service. what would be the positive and negative ramifications of that decision? Here the He-112 can get feasible updates as war progresses, and engines do not have to be of only German origin.

    We will skip He-110 in this thread :)
     
  2. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    I'll assume we're talking about the B-series version.
    It would require the DB601 engine, of which there were already too few to go around, so that's a major problem unless it adopts the Jumo 211, which was bigger and not up to the type of performance that the Daimler's gave. The other problem was that it was a 1933 design, so it would have meant the LW would just be duplicating the Me109 instead of getting a next generation fighter in the FW190.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    RLM will need to invest RM 50 million in the Genshagen engine plant as originally planned. Otherwise there won't be enough DB601 engines to go around.

    Heinkel must lower He-112B production cost. I assume this can be done in a manner similar to the He-100. Redesigned aircraft is likely to get a different designation before entering mass production. Perhaps there really will be a He-113.

    .....Assuming this happens there is no longer a need for the Fw-190 and BMW801 engine.
    .....Heinkel fighter aircraft will evolve over time just as Me-109 did.

    Personally I consider this a solid plan. Late 1930s Germany would have two competing V12 engine designs (DB601, Jumo211) and two competing single engine fighter airframes. Competition tends to improve performance and lower cost.
     
  4. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Anybody has the information about fuel tankage in the He-112?

    BTW:
    The Jumo 211 was not a that a bigger engine than DB-601 (length was the same, max width was approx. 80 cm vs. 70 cm), and the performance was in the ballpark.
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Messerschmitt, Focke Wulf and Heinkel all preferred Daimler-Benz engines for their fighter aircraft designs. It stands to reason DB engines must have been superior for that role even if they look similar on paper.
     
  6. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #6 GregP, Oct 27, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the He-112 prototype's were rarely all that much like one another. It's like Ernst Heinkel was tailoring the next airframe for the specific contest, not making and conforming aircraft.

    So, the He-112 could have been updated with modern airfoils, different structures, etc.

    This means that if nothing else, the He-112 was very adaptable ... or else Heinkel was very adaptable. So, if the he-112 came up short against the Bf 109, Heinkel would probably have improved it until it was better if he had a production contract.

    I think it could have been turned into a good contender, but it can also be argued the other way. I'd like to have seen an effort to reduce the cross sectional area as well as making the wing better for 350+ mph flight. Given the number of variants in its short life, that doesn't seem insurmountable.

    On the other hand, the Fw 190 was a great addition to the Bf 109.
     
  7. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    I agree that DBs seem to offer more, not just in 1939/40. The Jumo 211 can offer something else - namely, the availability. Not only for Germans, their allies also needed a performer, since the 500 km/h fighters won't cut it from 1941 on.
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    If Junkers had a significant long term order for Jumo 211 fighter aircraft engines (i.e. at least 200 per month) I suspect they would make a new variant and tool one of their four engine factories to produce it. However Junkers isn't going to spend development money to sell a few hundred engines.

    How many Jumo 211 engines are you planning to purchase for use in fighter aircraft?
     
  9. The Basket

    The Basket Well-Known Member

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    Why? Bf 109 outperformed it and it was more expensive and more man hours to build.

    The He 100 was more like it. The He 112 was too over fussy and although it certainly had something i wouldnt bother.

    If your thinking Hurricane/Spitfire mix using one as insurance if the other fails then the 112 is no hurricane.
     
  10. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    The Jumo 211 was in short supply and/or lacked power in 39/40, otherwise they would have not used the DB 601 in the He 111 P-series (of which 834 were built).
     
  11. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    The RLM was smart to choose the Bf 109 followed by the Fw 190 as its 'second iron in the fire' and ignore the He 112.
     
  12. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    #12 tomo pauk, Oct 29, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2013
    The RLM never viewed it's allies as an asset. Once the things got tough from 1942 on, Germans were only able to say: Well, yes, we will supply you with two dozens of Bf-109s. Sorry, you cannot have any Fw-190s, but we will sell you mighty Curtiss Hawks, D.520 and/or some captured Russian engines.
    So the small airforces had to make do with Brewsters, MS.406, Hurricane Is, Avias, well into 1944.
    Just compare that with assistance provided by the UK, for the USSR and CW, without even thinking about what USA provided.

    The Jumo 211 was produced in maybe 10% less examples than DB-601 in 'war part' of 1939. Starting in Jan 1940 the production equaled, and, by Dec 1940, the 211 was produced in as much copies as DB-601 and BMW radials together.
    At 5 km, the Jumo 211B was making 930 PS on 30min rating, vs. ~950 for DB-601A. The He-112B was good for 510 km/h, on far less capable Jumo 210G engines; at 5 km the 210G was making maybe 550 PS.

    added: the tables with monthly production of German 'main' engine types:
    http://www.enginehistory.org/German/WW2Production.shtml
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    German Chancellor and Foreign Secretary make those decisions. Not a branch of the Luftwaffe.

    However I agree with the thrust of your argument. 1930s Germany should have been empowering friendly nations that share a border with the Soviet Union. Just as USA did with the creation of NATO after 1949.

    Ideally Poland should also be part of the anti-Comintern alliance. Perhaps a chance to join would give Poland enough incentive to allow a Danzig plebiscite.
     
  14. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Nazi foreign policy was not that rational. Germany was hardly going to empower nations on whose territory it had other designs.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  15. swampyankee

    swampyankee Active Member

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    Germany was most certainly not going to empower a country inhabited by people who they were planning on enslaving!
     
  16. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    And a large percentage of which were to be "ausrotten". Translate how you like :)
    Here's a few ideas......eradicate, annihilate, destroy, exterminate, obliterate, eliminate.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
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