Lucky13
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Would start off with a Dora-9 I think, with the correct engine!
Me 110 today?
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I beleive the A6M3 had a pratt whitney engine due to rariety of parts for its normal engine but the rest of the aircraft I beleive is orginal but could be wrong. Going by memory.
Attachments
There is also a BF110 in Denmark. It is in a private collection, but they show it to groups. Night-fighter version, complete, but not airworthy.
I agree with the sentiment that very rare planes should not be flown. The risk of loosing them is too great, and indeed several rare vintage birds have been lost to accidents over time. It is a little different with automobiles, since, if driven with care, accidents are rarely catastrophic.
MRC_Hans
I agree with the sentiment that very rare planes should not be flown. The risk of loosing them is too great, and indeed several rare vintage birds have been lost to accidents over time. It is a little different with automobiles, since, if driven with care, accidents are rarely catastrophic.
MRC_Hans
Are you sure that is not a reproduction?
As far as I know there are only two intact complete Bf 110's on display. One in London, one in Berlin.
Yes, I'm sure. I have touched it. Actually stood on the wing and taken pictures into the cockpit. Their website is here: GillelejeGruppen.dk
It is, unfortunately, in Danish.
Apparently, it has been pieced together from several planes.
Hans
It is, unfortunately, in Danish.
Apparently, it has been pieced together from several planes.
Hans
fubar57
General
Translated from the site:
Messerschmitt Bf 110 was a two-engine fighter fly, which was designed by Willy Messerschmitt and constructed as a heavy fighter-bomber in 1937. It was used by Air waffe during WW2 and was involved in the "Battle of Britain".
Bf 110'ern had a longer range than the single-engine Messerschmitt Bf 109, and therefore had to escort bompeflyene. During the battle, it turned out, however, that Bf 110'ern was easy to outmaneuver in air combat - it could not defend against the British fighters as Spitfire and Hurricane, because it was too clumsy and heavy. It therefore had even escorted by Bf 109th
Bf 110 was first produced as a daytime flights. There was no engine instruments in the cockpit, but was instead mounted directly on motornacellerne, and could be read by the pilot through the small windows.
In 1942 came Bf 110'ern of production. In 1944, however in Germany badly needed night fighters, and we tried several different types of aircraft. It got so the idea to try Bf 110 equipped with airborne radar. It turned out that the plane was very suitable for this role, why it started production again. The plane was now one three-man crew consisting of a pilot, radar and radio operator and tail gunner.
It produced aircraft until the end of the war. There were a total of 6,150 manufactured articles of the type Bf 110 - most versions included.
We have even labeled the Bf 110'ern in Denmark during the occupation. Nine of its kind destroyed the newest Fokker D.xxi in Værløse camp d. 09th April 1940. The attack by Bf 110'erne was done very disciplined. We unfortunately lost two Danish pilots whose plane was shot down during startup, but otherwise was neither personnel or hangars damaged.
There are only three Messerschmitt Bf 110 G4 night fighter over the world - one is our complete aircraft - the other two are in Germany and England.
The reconstruction of the plane was the start of our Knowledge 40-45, and the plane is today that our great pride and assembly gem. We have managed to get hold of many original parts for aircraft including a wing with bullet holes from the war.
It has been a long process to rebuild the aircraft from a cockpit of a full flight. The reconstruction has taken more than 10 years, but it has been all worth the effort! Besides the aircraft now stands completely full as our pride, so has worked with the plane also brought much joy with them - that have been fostered some good and life-long friendships crisscross of age.
Messerschmitt Bf 110 was a two-engine fighter fly, which was designed by Willy Messerschmitt and constructed as a heavy fighter-bomber in 1937. It was used by Air waffe during WW2 and was involved in the "Battle of Britain".
Bf 110'ern had a longer range than the single-engine Messerschmitt Bf 109, and therefore had to escort bompeflyene. During the battle, it turned out, however, that Bf 110'ern was easy to outmaneuver in air combat - it could not defend against the British fighters as Spitfire and Hurricane, because it was too clumsy and heavy. It therefore had even escorted by Bf 109th
Bf 110 was first produced as a daytime flights. There was no engine instruments in the cockpit, but was instead mounted directly on motornacellerne, and could be read by the pilot through the small windows.
In 1942 came Bf 110'ern of production. In 1944, however in Germany badly needed night fighters, and we tried several different types of aircraft. It got so the idea to try Bf 110 equipped with airborne radar. It turned out that the plane was very suitable for this role, why it started production again. The plane was now one three-man crew consisting of a pilot, radar and radio operator and tail gunner.
It produced aircraft until the end of the war. There were a total of 6,150 manufactured articles of the type Bf 110 - most versions included.
We have even labeled the Bf 110'ern in Denmark during the occupation. Nine of its kind destroyed the newest Fokker D.xxi in Værløse camp d. 09th April 1940. The attack by Bf 110'erne was done very disciplined. We unfortunately lost two Danish pilots whose plane was shot down during startup, but otherwise was neither personnel or hangars damaged.
There are only three Messerschmitt Bf 110 G4 night fighter over the world - one is our complete aircraft - the other two are in Germany and England.
The reconstruction of the plane was the start of our Knowledge 40-45, and the plane is today that our great pride and assembly gem. We have managed to get hold of many original parts for aircraft including a wing with bullet holes from the war.
It has been a long process to rebuild the aircraft from a cockpit of a full flight. The reconstruction has taken more than 10 years, but it has been all worth the effort! Besides the aircraft now stands completely full as our pride, so has worked with the plane also brought much joy with them - that have been fostered some good and life-long friendships crisscross of age.
Intersting. I had not heard of this one.
I myself would consider it real, but from what I get (reading about it on the internet now) it is still considered a replica since it was made from so many different aircraft parts, and extensive new built structures. For instance only one wing is original from what I get. That is why they say there are only two original 110's left, and consider this a replica.
Still very very nice.
I myself would consider it real, but from what I get (reading about it on the internet now) it is still considered a replica since it was made from so many different aircraft parts, and extensive new built structures. For instance only one wing is original from what I get. That is why they say there are only two original 110's left, and consider this a replica.
Still very very nice.
Old Wizard
2nd Lieutenant
But many WW2 airplanes were rebuilt from other airplanes during the war.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Just trying to think of a reason why they don't count it among the original restored 110's. It is not listed under any registry.
I wonder if there is a general rule or something that states a certain percentage has to be original or something.
GregP
Major
You all know where I stand on flying warbirds.
If I own it, I will fly it whether or not anyone else likes it, assuming it is airworthy.
If you own it, you can do what you want with it, inclluding grinding it up for scrap, preserving it for posterity, or gold-plating it and displaying it in your living room. The owner gets to decide. Most guys like me would fly it, and pass it on to the next generation to fly. And I stipulate taht the plane would only be sold to people who would fly it and maintain it as flyable going forward. Failed to do so woudl see ownership revert to a flying museum.
So, if the preservationists get the planes, OK. If they don't, then future generations get to see them fly. Enturely up to the owners.
If I own it, I will fly it whether or not anyone else likes it, assuming it is airworthy.
If you own it, you can do what you want with it, inclluding grinding it up for scrap, preserving it for posterity, or gold-plating it and displaying it in your living room. The owner gets to decide. Most guys like me would fly it, and pass it on to the next generation to fly. And I stipulate taht the plane would only be sold to people who would fly it and maintain it as flyable going forward. Failed to do so woudl see ownership revert to a flying museum.
So, if the preservationists get the planes, OK. If they don't, then future generations get to see them fly. Enturely up to the owners.
DerAdler,
The P-61 that's getting rebuilt and quite a few others I have seen are what appears to be almost a complete "reproduction" yet they are considered the "real McCoy". The Bf-110 might have been built to look like the real thing, but internally it's just a shell, where as the planes that fly are correct structurally as well as in appearance. I do not know either way, just thinking out loud.
I have a 66 Mustang GT, and one of the forums I go on has had some huge discussions about what is considered authentic or numbers matching versus what isn't. Re-bodied cars, owners stamping the VIN into the block vice the factory, date codes, etc.? It seems to be two different standards with aviation being the far larger "tolerance" of the two.
As far as flying a rare plane, I'm in the owner gets to decide camp. They bought it and as such get to decide in my opine. Yes, it might be the last of it's kind, 1 of 2 made, flown by all the top aces back in the day, was used to shoot down Eric Hartmann twice and Marseille once, however the decision to fly or not to fly still resides with the owner. If I were the owner, I would make sure it was in absolutely great flying condition, that I was trained / prepared to fly it, and the weather or field conditions were all way into the safe zone prior to powering up for take off, and what I asked the plane to do would be well with in it's limits.
Cheers,
Biff
The P-61 that's getting rebuilt and quite a few others I have seen are what appears to be almost a complete "reproduction" yet they are considered the "real McCoy". The Bf-110 might have been built to look like the real thing, but internally it's just a shell, where as the planes that fly are correct structurally as well as in appearance. I do not know either way, just thinking out loud.
I have a 66 Mustang GT, and one of the forums I go on has had some huge discussions about what is considered authentic or numbers matching versus what isn't. Re-bodied cars, owners stamping the VIN into the block vice the factory, date codes, etc.? It seems to be two different standards with aviation being the far larger "tolerance" of the two.
As far as flying a rare plane, I'm in the owner gets to decide camp. They bought it and as such get to decide in my opine. Yes, it might be the last of it's kind, 1 of 2 made, flown by all the top aces back in the day, was used to shoot down Eric Hartmann twice and Marseille once, however the decision to fly or not to fly still resides with the owner. If I were the owner, I would make sure it was in absolutely great flying condition, that I was trained / prepared to fly it, and the weather or field conditions were all way into the safe zone prior to powering up for take off, and what I asked the plane to do would be well with in it's limits.
Cheers,
Biff
It might have more to do with Gillelejegruppen not being an official museum. AFAIK, their '110 is reasonably complete. And more importantly, all parts are genuine WW2 parts.
As for "owner gets to decide", well of course. That is not the discussion. The discussion is wether ir is reasonable. Another point is that to make such an old plane flyable, you will need to replace a lot of parts. In effect, it often ends up with only some 20% being from the original aircraft.
Anyway, the cost of restoring a 70* year old warbird, especially a rare one where little or no spares are available, to flyable condition is quickly getting so high that the problem is getting marginal.
Hans
As for "owner gets to decide", well of course. That is not the discussion. The discussion is wether ir is reasonable. Another point is that to make such an old plane flyable, you will need to replace a lot of parts. In effect, it often ends up with only some 20% being from the original aircraft.
Anyway, the cost of restoring a 70* year old warbird, especially a rare one where little or no spares are available, to flyable condition is quickly getting so high that the problem is getting marginal.
Hans
It is tragic that in the dog days of the war no one saw fit to ensure some things were preserved. The imperial War Museum was started in 1917 when WW1 was still ongoing, but nothing similar was done in WW2. Maybe there were just so many aircraft no one ever thought that a situation would come where there were no examples of really iconic aircraft left to preserve. Even the Enola Gay, which was slated to be preserved ended up stored outside and stripped by trophy hunters and so is a sort of re built replica itself. What a person does with his own property is obviously his own affair, however none were originally anyones property, iconic aircraft flown by aces or on major missions should have been preserved for static display, but werent. The aircraft that remain flying are in the main replicas, much was made of a Spitfire recovered from Dunkirk being restored and put back in the air, does anyone really believe it is not a new plane with the old frame number.
Thats kind of what I am getting at. From what I am reading on the internet is that it a "shell". A replica made by new building parts, and including original parts as well. For instance, one wing is an original. The other is new built. The aircraft is made to look complete, but is not a restoration of an original aircraft.
There are only two restored original 110's. One in England, one in Germany.
Either way this Danish one is nicely done, and beautiful to look at.
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I think it's more that it is a replica. A very well done one. Just like the replica 190 in Sinsheim. You can't tell it is a replica, and has original parts in it, but it is not restoration of an actual 190 with a Werk Nummer.
Therefore it is not included in the registry of original aircraft.
An acft does not have to be in an official museum to be counted as original. There are dozens of original warbirds all over the US and Europe in private collections.
Here is a list of known original Bf 110's around the world, including the two restored complete ones in England and Germany.
Preserved Axis Aircraft
You are absolutely correct. You have to remember even an "original" probably has a large percentage of new skins, etc.
I guess if it has an original data tag, it is real...
Perhaps. Although the list you link to contains aircraft that are very incomplete. But how does a plane get on the lists? Presumably someone has to report it, then someone has to go and check out if it's the real thing. In some ways, Gillelejegruppen are a bit secretive (even though they take in tours). Maybe they simply haven't done the paperwork.
Hans
In the case of that Spitfire which spent 40+ years in the sea I suspect the data tag has the same numbers/letters as the original but is also brand new, the planes identity, history and pilot were always known.I guess if it has an original data tag, it is real...
This is how it looked in 1980
Spitfire takes to the skies 71 years after leaving Hornchurch RAF
I highly doubt that...
Bf 110's are extremely rare and valuable.
I'm pretty sure it's obvious what is considered original restored, and what is considered a repro.
I think putting some original parts in something pretty much new does not make it restored.
Again not trying to knock the Danish 110. It is a fantastic reproduction.
I wish more would be restored. It is a shame there are only two at the moment. More reproductions as well would be amazing.
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