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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
On March 17, 1945 JG-7 fielded 37 262s and claimed 12 bombers while losing 3, this was against over 1200 bombers. On March 31, the same unit along with aircraft from KG-54 claimed 17 without a single loss.
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kettbo
Senior Airman
a close call for the Allies that the Germans did not have the metals for a good jet engine earlier
Thorlifter
Captain
1200 bombers and only lost 12. That's a 1% loss rate, which I believe bomber command would have deemed EXTREMELY acceptable. However, I understand the "what if" factor of if there were 100+ 262's instead of 20 or 30.
GregP
Major
That's 1% to the Me 262.
How many to flak, own attrition, other fighters, and losses on the way home due to damage inflicted by the various combination of foes along the way?
Not saying you are wrong above, but am curious about the entire losses count, not just to the Me 262.
I'd wish them to have pursued the Bachem Natter. As it is, I believe the Natter killed more German test pilots than Allied casualties inflicted. Had they pursued it, I doubt it would have been much better due to rocket power idiosyncracies, a REALLY bad gunsight, and other weakness inherent to rocket designs in a piston powered world that was seeing 8+ hour, 1,000-plane missions missions from one side that were never developed by the other side.
Sure makes me wonder
How many to flak, own attrition, other fighters, and losses on the way home due to damage inflicted by the various combination of foes along the way?
Not saying you are wrong above, but am curious about the entire losses count, not just to the Me 262.
I'd wish them to have pursued the Bachem Natter. As it is, I believe the Natter killed more German test pilots than Allied casualties inflicted. Had they pursued it, I doubt it would have been much better due to rocket power idiosyncracies, a REALLY bad gunsight, and other weakness inherent to rocket designs in a piston powered world that was seeing 8+ hour, 1,000-plane missions missions from one side that were never developed by the other side.
Sure makes me wonder
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Only one manned powered flight was ever made by a Ba 349 and the pilot, Lothar Siebel, was killed. He attempted to fly M-23. There had been several towed flights with Hans Zubert at the controls to test other functions, including separation of the motor and escape of the pilot and several unmanned powered launches.
Don't under estimate the 'Natter'. On launch it accelerated at 2.2g to 700kph in 1500 metres and would reach an altitude of 11,000 metres in one minute. Armed with 24 Henschel Hs 217 R4M 73mm rockets it could have launched a destructive salvo at the bombers. There were plans to increase the armament to 32 or even 48 smaller, 55mm, rockets.
The system did have limitations. Cruising at 800kph (495mph) at 12,000m the aircraft only had a 20km radius of action so it needed to be launched almost directly under the bomber stream. Nonetheless it could have been effective in certain circumstances.
It's another example of the pressures of war forcing the Germans to use their technology to run before they could walk. It's no accident that the RLM turned down the Natter project, though Galland was interested in it, and it was only adopted after a personal intervention by Himmler. The project remained under effective SS control.
Cheers
Steve
March 17 1945
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS
(Eighth Air Force):: 2 missions are flown. Mission 892: 1,328 bombers and 820 P-51s are dispatched to hit oil, industrial and rail targets in Germany; clouds extend from 1,000 to 15,000 feet (305 to 4,572 m) and over the targets there is 9/10 to 10/10 cloud cover necessitating PFF methods for bombing; 5 B-17s and 2 P-51s are lost:
1. 527 B-17s are sent to hit the oil refinery at Ruhland (214); 138 hit the secondary target, the Bittefeld oil refinery; targets of opportunity are the Vomag munitions factory at Plauen (125), Fulda (19), Cottbus (11) and other (3); H2X radar is used; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 46 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 35 MIA. Escorting are 252 of 280 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
2. 449 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil refinery at Bohlen (152) and the oil refinery and power station at Molbis (127); secondary targets are the Zeiss works at Jena (71) and the marshalling yard at Erfurt (51); targets of opportunity are Altenburg (36) and other (3); bombing is by H2X radar; 1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 15 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. 266 of 283 P-51s escort; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
3. 346 B-24s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Munster (170) and the Hanomag tank factory at Hannover (146); 9 other hit Herford, a target of opportunity; Gee-H and H2X are used to bomb; 3 B-24s are damaged. The escort is 122 of 128 P-51s.
4. 6 B-24s fly a screening mission.
5. 79 of 86 P-51s fly a freelance sweep without loss.
6. 28 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss.
7. 9 of 11 P-51s escort 2 F-5s and 1 Spitfire on a photo reconnaissance mission over Germany.
Mission 893: 9 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany, the Netherlands and France during the night.
March 31 1945
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS
(Eighth Air Force):: Mission 920: 1,348 bombers and 889 fighters are dispatched to hit synthetic oil plants, a refinery, munitions plant and tank factory; they claim 9-3-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
1. 229 B-17s are sent to hit the synthetic oil refinery at Zeitz using H2X radar; secondary targets hit are the oil plant at Bad Berka (29) and Gotha (20) visually; targets of opportunity are Erfurt (25) and other ( 8 ), hit visually; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 108 damaged; 1 airman is KIA; 2 WIA and 30 MIA. Escorting are 117 of 120 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
2. 294 B-17s are sent to hit Brandenburg (265); targets of opportunity are Stendal (9) and Salzwedel (9); they claim 0-1-0 aircraft; 1 B-17 is damaged. 207 of 221 P-51s escort claiming 5-0-0 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
3. 371 of 385 B-24s hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at Brunswick; they claim 3-2-1 aircraft; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 3 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 29 MIA. The escort is 253 of 266 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-7 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
4. 369 of 432 B-17s attack the secondary, the marshalling yard at Halle; targets of opportunity are Leipzig ( 8 ), Weimar (36), Aschersleben (7) and other (1); 37 B-17s are damaged. Escorting are 225 of 233 P-51s.
5. 8 B-17s fly a screening mission.
6. 26 of 30 P-51s fly scouting missions; they claim 1-0-1 aircraft.
7. 19 P-51s escort 8 of 10 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions.
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS
(Eighth Air Force):: 2 missions are flown. Mission 892: 1,328 bombers and 820 P-51s are dispatched to hit oil, industrial and rail targets in Germany; clouds extend from 1,000 to 15,000 feet (305 to 4,572 m) and over the targets there is 9/10 to 10/10 cloud cover necessitating PFF methods for bombing; 5 B-17s and 2 P-51s are lost:
1. 527 B-17s are sent to hit the oil refinery at Ruhland (214); 138 hit the secondary target, the Bittefeld oil refinery; targets of opportunity are the Vomag munitions factory at Plauen (125), Fulda (19), Cottbus (11) and other (3); H2X radar is used; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 46 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 35 MIA. Escorting are 252 of 280 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
2. 449 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil refinery at Bohlen (152) and the oil refinery and power station at Molbis (127); secondary targets are the Zeiss works at Jena (71) and the marshalling yard at Erfurt (51); targets of opportunity are Altenburg (36) and other (3); bombing is by H2X radar; 1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 15 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. 266 of 283 P-51s escort; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
3. 346 B-24s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Munster (170) and the Hanomag tank factory at Hannover (146); 9 other hit Herford, a target of opportunity; Gee-H and H2X are used to bomb; 3 B-24s are damaged. The escort is 122 of 128 P-51s.
4. 6 B-24s fly a screening mission.
5. 79 of 86 P-51s fly a freelance sweep without loss.
6. 28 of 32 P-51s fly a scouting mission without loss.
7. 9 of 11 P-51s escort 2 F-5s and 1 Spitfire on a photo reconnaissance mission over Germany.
Mission 893: 9 B-24s drop leaflets in Germany, the Netherlands and France during the night.
March 31 1945
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS
(Eighth Air Force):: Mission 920: 1,348 bombers and 889 fighters are dispatched to hit synthetic oil plants, a refinery, munitions plant and tank factory; they claim 9-3-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
1. 229 B-17s are sent to hit the synthetic oil refinery at Zeitz using H2X radar; secondary targets hit are the oil plant at Bad Berka (29) and Gotha (20) visually; targets of opportunity are Erfurt (25) and other ( 8 ), hit visually; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 108 damaged; 1 airman is KIA; 2 WIA and 30 MIA. Escorting are 117 of 120 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot MIA).
2. 294 B-17s are sent to hit Brandenburg (265); targets of opportunity are Stendal (9) and Salzwedel (9); they claim 0-1-0 aircraft; 1 B-17 is damaged. 207 of 221 P-51s escort claiming 5-0-0 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
3. 371 of 385 B-24s hit the secondary target, the marshalling yard at Brunswick; they claim 3-2-1 aircraft; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 3 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 29 MIA. The escort is 253 of 266 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-7 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
4. 369 of 432 B-17s attack the secondary, the marshalling yard at Halle; targets of opportunity are Leipzig ( 8 ), Weimar (36), Aschersleben (7) and other (1); 37 B-17s are damaged. Escorting are 225 of 233 P-51s.
5. 8 B-17s fly a screening mission.
6. 26 of 30 P-51s fly scouting missions; they claim 1-0-1 aircraft.
7. 19 P-51s escort 8 of 10 F-5s on photo reconnaissance missions.
kettbo
Senior Airman
Noted both mission summaries above have a Screening mission.\ Screening?
small numbers and no escort...
are we using a code name here for Electronic Warfare? Radio intel/intercept?
small numbers and no escort...
are we using a code name here for Electronic Warfare? Radio intel/intercept?
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
they would think they would need probably 400 or more 262s and the ability to put them up in waves in inconjunction with 109s and 190s to make a real dent in 1000+ bombers.
You need enough to push the loss rate of the bombers up to about 5% per mission. That might not sound much but no air force can survive an on going attrition rate at that level. On a 1,000 bomber raid not only does that represent 50 expensive bombers but also the loss of 500 expensively trained airmen.
For comparison Bomber Command losses throughout the war vary around 2%-3% for its heavy bombers and that still means that a bomber crew was taking roughly a 50/50 chance on their lives to complete a tour.
In some historical 'what ifs', not something I like to indulge in, inflicting a 5% loss rate on the USAAF by day would seem to have been within the capability of a Luftwaffe operating a couple of hundred Me 262s.
Cheers
Steve
For comparison Bomber Command losses throughout the war vary around 2%-3% for its heavy bombers and that still means that a bomber crew was taking roughly a 50/50 chance on their lives to complete a tour.
In some historical 'what ifs', not something I like to indulge in, inflicting a 5% loss rate on the USAAF by day would seem to have been within the capability of a Luftwaffe operating a couple of hundred Me 262s.
Cheers
Steve
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Look how the Luftwaffe forced the 8th AF and RAF BC to rethink their strategies earlier in the war.
So if the Luftwaffe could have fielded more Me262s, then there would have been a shift in bombing tactics. However, it would have been a minute and fleeting victory for the Germans.
And holding the bombers at bay wouldn't have stemmed the Allied advances on the ground or the beating the Luftwaffe was suffering from the Allied fighters.
Well it's what iffery isn't it.
If the Luftwaffe could have forced the USAAF, particularly the 8th AF to stop it's massive daylight raids then the Luftwaffe wouldn't be taking a beating from its fighters. It would also provide some relief to the wartime economy spending vast resources of dispersing and hiding its production as well as on anti aircraft defences and civil air raid precautions. The effect of a neglect of the latter was well demonstrated in Dresden. I'm not sure what effect the Me 262 would have had on Bomber Command at night.
It's not war winning, but it would provide some respite and certainly delay the inevitable, maybe even the Normandy landings. How far west would the Soviets have got?
It's a rhetorical question
I really don't find such speculation helpful
How would the 8th AF alter its bombing tactics? It might take many months to retrain the crews and this too would provide respite for the economy and the Jagdwaffe.
Cheers
Steve
If the Luftwaffe could have forced the USAAF, particularly the 8th AF to stop it's massive daylight raids then the Luftwaffe wouldn't be taking a beating from its fighters. It would also provide some relief to the wartime economy spending vast resources of dispersing and hiding its production as well as on anti aircraft defences and civil air raid precautions. The effect of a neglect of the latter was well demonstrated in Dresden. I'm not sure what effect the Me 262 would have had on Bomber Command at night.
It's not war winning, but it would provide some respite and certainly delay the inevitable, maybe even the Normandy landings. How far west would the Soviets have got?
It's a rhetorical question
I really don't find such speculation helpful How would the 8th AF alter its bombing tactics? It might take many months to retrain the crews and this too would provide respite for the economy and the Jagdwaffe.
Cheers
Steve
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wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Would having a dive break installed made a bigger difference in their ability to inflict losses, as Eric Brown suggested?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
While I agree on the respite the teetering German industry would have enjoyed, I still feel that the Allied fighter incursions would have still happened. They had proved to be successful in bleeding the Luftwaffe and there wouldn't be any reason to stop that. If anything, the escort missions being abated, there would be more fighters free to scour the countryside.
There had been several successful NF intercepts by Me262 single-seat fighters, though I am not sure if there would be any change in the historical timeline if the daylight bombing was discontinued. Perhaps the 8th AF would shift to night-time bombing alongside the RAF, forcing the Luftwaffe to ramp up it's NachtJager operations.
There had been several successful NF intercepts by Me262 single-seat fighters, though I am not sure if there would be any change in the historical timeline if the daylight bombing was discontinued. Perhaps the 8th AF would shift to night-time bombing alongside the RAF, forcing the Luftwaffe to ramp up it's NachtJager operations.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Me262's rate of closure meant that it only had a second or so to effectively fire on it's target as it hurtled in on the bomber formation.
Easing off the throttled did not slow the aircraft enough to allow an extended firing window. It was suggested that if the Me262 had "dive brakes" installed, it would have allowed the Me262 to come into the formation at speed and suddenly deaccelerate, enabling it to have a longer firing window (where the pilot could align the cannon on target), which would also increase accuracy.
But they wouldn't have found the Luftwaffe. The fighters came up to intercept the bombers. The RAF tried baiting them up earlier in the war and it didn't work.
I can imagine the 8th AF switching to night bombing, but that wouldn't happen over night (no pun intended).
Cheers
Steve
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
If the Allies ran a combination GA with Top Cover style mission, I am sure the Luftwaffe would have challenged them. Although trying to conduct GA missions near Luftwaffe airbases had the additional thrill of heavy AA protection.
Nicely done!
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Doesnt that bring problems in that the 262 engines didnt like big changes in air flow and didnt accelerate very well so they are vulnerable to flaming out for a short time during and after the brakes have been operated. Dropping a big dive brake is going to throw your aim right off as the plane pitches up or down and wastse valuable time getting the target picture back.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Could the P80 have been rushed into "emergency" deployment towards the end of '44?
