Me 262 deutsch marine prototype

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by mikewint, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. mikewint

    mikewint Well-Known Member

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    has anyone every heard of a marine prototype of the Me 262?
    it has the word MARINE on the left and right sides of the rear fuselage, the word? POUL in large red letters just under the cockpit left side, and a white 24 on the nose.
    other than that the letters SJ G1 are associated with it. thought at first these might be the stammkennzeichen but no luck there. i cannot find a geschwader unit SJ though G1 might refer to Gruppe 1
    if anyone has any info or can point me in the proper direction i would greatly appreciate any and all help
    email: [email protected]
    mike winter
     
  2. Colin1

    Colin1 Active Member

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    Would that be marine as in navalised?
    Not heard of it myself but interesting the thought of an Me262 spooling up reliably enough for a fly-off

    I'll have a dig around though

    I'd remove your eMail address and invite people to PM you
     
  3. Torch

    Torch Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a recce plane for the navy?
     
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps land based air cover for coastal regions like Helgoland Bight. However endurance is pretty low for that mission.

    I would much prefer the Do-335 which had huge endurance, internal 1,000kg weapons bay and performance more then adequate to handle anything likely to be encountered during 1945.
     
  5. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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  6. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    The Me262T never existed, and that "historical overview" on that page must be viewed as historical fiction. The order by Hitler in 1943, that ordered the decommissioning and scrapping of all large surface ships, halted any plans for the completion of the DKM Graf Zepplin, which at that point was nowhere near operational. Just the timeline right there tells you that it couldn't have happened, since the Me262 wasn't ready for production yet...

    Also, the deck of the Graf Zepplin was 861 feet long and the Me262 needed much longer for landing and takeoff. The weight and required TOL speeds of the '262 were completely unacceptable for any carrier ops. One other thing to note, the clearance of the jet engines to the ground (or deck, in this case) would have meant that a carrier deck at that time (usually Teak) would get incinerated by the exhaust on takeoff.

    While it's a cool "what if", it's not for real...
     
  7. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with you Dave, I could not find anything in the 262 books I have - which I think would be a tad odd, esp with this plane.
     
  8. Waynos

    Waynos Active Member

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    Great link, the line about this being trhe first kit from 'phake models' tells you all you need to know.
     
  9. beaupower32

    beaupower32 Well-Known Member

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    I figured it was fake. With them painting marine on the side was one indication. The second one is actually saying the Graf Zeppellin committed to its first patrol was utter BullSh!t. Great story, but as GruGeist said, pure fantisy.
     
  10. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Pure fantasy. My head was scratching over SJG 1!??!! And did ya read the last line......

    "'MARINE' inscription was borrowed from post war times, can be found nowadays on all planes operated by the German navy "
     
  11. mikewint

    mikewint Well-Known Member

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    thank you for all the replies, its good to know that i'm not the only one to hit a brick wall on this plane.
    marine however is an acceptable german term. the german navy had been known in the past as the deutsch marine and during WWII as the kreigsmarine and is now back to deutsch marine
    the germans also did some really strange prototypes and conversions on the 262 like the 50mm cannon (2 prototypes) with a muzzel flash so bright it blinded the pilot.
    i knew about the almost carrier and the wooden deck so that was a dead end and the very slow spooling up for the jumo turbos. the germans had also tried JATO so ...
    POUL seemed like a clue. i found a PAUL BREY 262 ace, and a professor POHL involved in the initial stages of turbine development. as to german WWII test pilots i have never found a comprehensive list
    the SJ? abreviation for prototype testing? though that should be EprGr
    the only other clue is a date of 1945 germany is given so right at the end of the war?
    again any and all help suggestions greatly appreciated
    mike w
     
  12. Waynos

    Waynos Active Member

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    Mike, I think you may have missed the point.

    The Marine 262 is whats called a 'what if'. It never really existed, either as hardware or as a project, but a modeller has applied their imagination to it. 'Whiffing' as it is known is a very popular part of modelling and there are several websites dedicated to it.
    My personal favourite is 'whatifmodelers.com'
     
  13. bada

    bada Member

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    actually, the graffzep, was to be equipped with 2 catapultes capable of getting a STUKA full loaded (with bombs) in the air, maybe the Tonne more weight for the 262 could be a possible pb?

    The bigger pb would be the landing:lol: maybe with longer wings (as the 109T) the speed could be lower than the +/-195 kmh, but it would still be far from the 150kmh as the other planes, not forgetting the narrow and short legs of the plane that could cause some bouncing?

    anyway, it's a nice "whatif":p
     
  14. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure the Cats could have easliy flung the '262 off the deck, but in order for it to get airborn, it needed the extra distance to build up lift. So a launch off the deck would have been fast, short and one-way right into the water.

    Recovery would have been catastrophic, since the Me262 couldn't bleed off nessecary speed to allow the arrestor hooks to securely hold back the aircraft without tearing up the hook and/or gear (or more) and factor in the engine's inability to throttle up/down quick enough to compensate for a safe carrier landing.

    The article's mention of the modified wings (adapted for carrier ops) wouldn't have worked anyway, since Messerschmitt had already adapted the wings for the change in the center of gravity caused by the heavier Jumo engines during it's development. Shortening them would have sent the '262 back to the proverbial drawing board at a time when redevelopment of the aircraft wasn't an option. Also, the DKM Graf Zepplin was no longer available to the Kreigsmarine by late 1943, about a year before the Me262 started rolling off assembly lines...

    Mike, keep in mind that article you saw was based on a model kit made by a company by the name of "Phake Modelz"...this would be a pretty good clue about the mythical "Sea Swallow" you're searching for.

    There's a huge interest about the countless WWII "What If" scenarios in both battles and the equipment. Enough so, that the "Luft 1946" aircraft (especially the German designs) could fill volums of books.
     
  15. Wavelength

    Wavelength Member

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    In the Fueher Naval Confrences transcripts, there is a lot of talk about aircraft carriers throughout 1943. Hitler insists on updates on the GZ's progress each time, and at one point he demands to be told why the Gneisenau hasn't been converted to an aircraft carrier yet.

    I'm not saying that the 262 aboard carriers was feasable, but there was a lot of stuff going about German naval aviation after the Barents Sea battle that is not well known, nor has been addressed hardly at all in the body of literature.
     
  16. mikewint

    mikewint Well-Known Member

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    Waynos, you are exactly right, i had been assuning all along that at least one actual 262T had been built, a prototype. i did look up the revell site and that is my plane except mine is a franklin mint 1/48 scale diecast model. nowhere do they even suggest that this is/was a "pie-in-the-sky" concept, hence my confusion
    i am aware of the facts surrounding the almost graf zep, cats could have been made to "throw" the 262 into the air without engines. once aloft starting and spooling up require a lot of time. JATOs might buy more time but not much jets are poor gliders. the 262T did have modified nose gear, shorter and angled back to assist with landings and perhaps raise the angle of the jet exhaust maybe enough to save the teakwood deck?
    i've seen some pretty fantastic german prototypes produced near the wars end as hitler desperately sought that miracle machine to save the reich like the 100 ton MAUS.
    my sincerest thanks to all of you who responded and helped me
    mike w
     
  17. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    I dont believe there were ever any Me -262s operated by the German Navy. After 1942 there were no KM units operating anything other than floatplane recce craft.

    Still an intersting "what if" wonder how the 262 would compare to the first carrier borne Vampires which I think flew in either 1946 or 47
     
  18. Wavelength

    Wavelength Member

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    It's my understanding that was pretty much the case all along. Actually even the float planes aboard ship were owned and operated by the Luftwaffe. Flegling efforts to establish more substantial KM air assets and capabilities were stopped by Goering and absorbed into the Luftwaffe before the war. For example, Mackie Steinhoff was orginally a Naval Officer and pilot. When the KM air groups were taken over by the Luftwaffe prior to the war Steinhoff along with most of the KM fighter pilots were transfered to JG26 initially.
     
  19. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Yes, your right, but at least in 1939-41 there were units of the Luftwaffe that had trained for carrier operations. I believe they ended their days on the eastern front.

    Luftwaffe plans for 1942 were for Me 109f equipped fighhters and Ju87s operating in both the divebomber and torpedo role. to the best of my knowledge none of this equipment was actually produced, and no fighter or strike squadrons actually formed. If I am in error on that, would sure like to hear about it...
     
  20. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    The unit mostly setup for the Graf Zeppelin was Tr 186.

    Trgergruppe 186

    When the carrier was given up, the unit was folding into existing Jagdgruppen.

    And as for torp carrying fighters........
     

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