Mig-23 flaw?

[Nodeo-Franvier]

In your opinion what is Mig-23 greatest flaws and what elements of it design should be changed?

 

[J_P_C]

by the numbers:
1) it was "too little and too late" (analog airplane in the advent of digital era) it was response to the expected development of western aircraft technology which never went in predicted by russians direction
2) generally swap wing concept does not match to the tactical fighter role
3) it's avionics was outdated from very beginning - could be except EOS which was far ahead of it's time
4) it was build around tactical concept which was far inferrior in compare to this one developed by potential enemy

 

[tomo pauk]

5, if not 10 years too late; swing wing was more trouble than it was worth it (earlier Mirage F1 did just fine with 'normal' wing; the wing on MiG-23 required 2 redesigns to became secure enough for aircraft doing high G maneuvers not to disintegrate; it adds to the design time, complexity to produce and maintain; more expensive than fixed wing); air intake was not 'canted' for less problems during high AoA flight,;cockpit was of 'burried' version, just when F-14 and F-15 were about to re-introduce 'elevated' cockpits. Then we have the policy of supplying some of the foreign costumers with dumbed-down versions, MiG-23 being probably the worst in that regard.

But, all in all, being too late is the worst mistake for a weapon of war.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Did the MiG-23/27 ever successfully engage a Western or Israeli fighter? The Flogger seems to be the default ride for Redshirts. As for tactical-level swing wings, the best looking of the Soviet's has to be the Su-24 Fencer.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

Did the MiG-23/27 ever successfully engage a Western or Israeli fighter? The Flogger seems to be the default ride for Redshirts. As for tactical-level swing wings, the best looking of the Soviet's has to be the Su-24 Fencer.

It seem that Iraq Mig-23 have shot down Iran M-14 and other older fighter such as F-4 and F-5.
There is even a report about it shooting down F-16.

 

[J_P_C]

Did the MiG-23/27 ever successfully engage a Western or Israeli fighter? The Flogger seems to be the default ride for Redshirts. As for tactical-level swing wings, the best looking of the Soviet's has to be the Su-24 Fencer.

yes it happen, at least twice time Soviet Mig-23MLD have scored victory over Pakistani F-16A, but MLD wasn't sold to export customers

 

[elbmc1969]

Excessively bouncy landing gear. Caused too much training attrition and would have been far worse in WWIII operational attrition.

Doesn't matter how good or bad your aircraft are if they keep crashing themselves.

 

[J_P_C]

Excessively bouncy landing gear. Caused too much training attrition and would have been far worse in WWIII operational attrition.

Doesn't matter how good or bad your aircraft are if they keep crashing themselves.

really???? - where you have found this info?? - i didn't noticed anything like this during my career - in my opinion landing gear of this airplane was piece of excellent engineering, sturdy, well thought, excellent kinematics solution, truly said i observed just one bumpy landing during my service - result of breaking parachute release before landing gear even touched runway (hard to say what distance above ground it was, 2-3m maybe)- result was repairable demage to the aft bottom portion of fuselage and nothing more - airplane was repaired during night and flown next day.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

really???? - where you have found this info?? - i didn't noticed anything like this during my career - in my opinion landing gear of this airplane was piece of excellent engineering, sturdy, well thought, excellent kinematics solution, truly said i observed just one bumpy landing during my service - result of breaking parachute release before landing gear even touched runway (hard to say what distance above ground it was, 2-3m maybe)- result was repairable demage to the aft bottom portion of fuselage and nothing more - airplane was repaired during night and flown next day.

Are you any chance eastern block pilot?

 

[J_P_C]

Are you any chance eastern block pilot?

i'm aircraft engineer with - 10 years of my career ive spend in military service - eastern block has dissapear in 1989 - two years before i've started my university

 

[The Basket]

Depends.

If the Flogger was Fishbed replacement and improvement model then yeah mission accomplished.

If the enemy was F-4 Phantom or F-5 Tiger then ok I can see where the Flogger has its advantages.

Early F-16 did not have BVR capability so again the Flogger would have an advantage.

NATO in the 70s/80s were flying all sorts so yes the Flogger would have advantages against the Fiat G91Y of the world.

So MiG-23 v F-22 Raptor....maybe not.
MiG-23 v Mirage III? I would be not so sure.

 

[J_P_C]

Depends.

If the Flogger was Fishbed replacement and improvement model then yeah mission accomplished.

If the enemy was F-4 Phantom or F-5 Tiger then ok I can see where the Flogger has its advantages.

Early F-16 did not have BVR capability so again the Flogger would have an advantage.

NATO in the 70s/80s were flying all sorts so yes the Flogger would have advantages against the Fiat G91Y of the world.

So MiG-23 v F-22 Raptor....maybe not.
MiG-23 v Mirage III? I would be not so sure.

Mig23 had couple advantages over F-4, F-5 - unrefueled range/mission endurance, R-60 missiles, and excellent gun - and basically this is it. Any other factor was up to pilot skills with huge advantage for the western airplanes in a term of avionics. You are overestimating R-23 - missile disigned as a weapon against bombers - practicaly uselles against fighter class target.
MirageIII - Mig may have chance if Mirage's pilot will be stupid enough to accept combat in vertical plane - in horizontal plane Mig23 (or any other mentioned by you US made fighters) will be easy prey for Mirage.

 

[The Basket]

Against aircraft like the Mirage 3 or F-5 or even the English Electric Lightning then the Flogger ain't in a bad place.

Even if the R-23 was marginal then a Mirage 3 to use it's Magics is going to have to get well within the range of the Apex. And that will be of a tactical consideration.

Also early AAM were not as capable as today so an Aphid is not an Archer. An early Magic or Sidewinder is not a sure thing.

Any Flogger pilot getting his wings out doing low and slow is not a clever pilot. Swing the wings, full afterburner and boom and zoom.

 

[J_P_C]

Against aircraft like the Mirage 3 or F-5 or even the English Electric Lightning then the Flogger ain't in a bad place.

Even if the R-23 was marginal then a Mirage 3 to use it's Magics is going to have to get well within the range of the Apex. And that will be of a tactical consideration.

Also early AAM were not as capable as today so an Aphid is not an Archer. An early Magic or Sidewinder is not a sure thing.

Any Flogger pilot getting his wings out doing low and slow is not a clever pilot. Swing the wings, full afterburner and boom and zoom.

I had chance to compare live fire performance of the R-60 and R-3 - believe me this two missiles are from different point of technology development but you are right about R-73 it is as big step fwd as R-60 was in compare to R-3 (basically copy of the Sidewinder b/c). Kind of Mig-23's advantage was it's engine. Pretty astonishing in a term of dynamic and adaptation time much better in this term than later turbofan generation. But the point is when you miss your first pass or you are in defensive position all Mig's advantages means almost nothing if your enemy has better situational awarness or is better in E/M management.

 

[The Basket]

Tactical or situation awareness and training or electronic warfare has nothing to do with the Flogger. That would be a strength or disadvantage for any fighter.

But if we create a scenario like the Falklands and let's say MiG-23 v Sea Harrier. The Sea Harrier will out maneuver me and has the nine lima so I don't want to test that plus a gun.

However, the performance is subsonic and doesn't have BVR and a limited radar capability.

Can the Flogger radar pick up the Sea Harrier at a lower altitude so it can fire the R-23? The R-60 was a tail chaser and short-range so I would be well within the nine lima kill envelope so give that a miss.

So my advantages are stay at higher altitude and take speculative shots with the R-23 or sweep the wings and run at them and try 23mm or Aphid them and run away before I get a nine lima up the wazoo.

I remember reading that in the Iran Iraq war as soon as an Iraqi fighter was pinged by a Tomcat it would run. Not exactly a win winner but very sensible!

 

[J_P_C]

Tactical or situation awareness and training or electronic warfare has nothing to do with the Flogger. That would be a strength or disadvantage for any fighter.

But if we create a scenario like the Falklands and let's say MiG-23 v Sea Harrier. The Sea Harrier will out maneuver me and has the nine lima so I don't want to test that plus a gun.

However, the performance is subsonic and doesn't have BVR and a limited radar capability.

Can the Flogger radar pick up the Sea Harrier at a lower altitude so it can fire the R-23? The R-60 was a tail chaser and short-range so I would be well within the nine lima kill envelope so give that a miss.

So my advantages are stay at higher altitude and take speculative shots with the R-23 or sweep the wings and run at them and try 23mm or Aphid them and run away before I get a nine lima up the wazoo.

I remember reading that in the Iran Iraq war as soon as an Iraqi fighter was pinged by a Tomcat it would run. Not exactly a win winner but very sensible!

Spot on - you described real combat situation which clearly underscored all weaknesses of -23. This airplane was thought as a part of integrated defence system - node of this system was ground command centers this is why Soviets scored vs. F16 over Afghanistan - they had opportunity to use it exactly as it was designed - without GCI you are limited to the thermolocator because radar performance is close to hopeless - at least monkey versions Soviets have sold to the their "alies".

 

[The Basket]

Well if you look at the MiG-29 which is certainly a magnitude ahead of the MiG-23 and see how that fares against western fighters.

The Flogger was part of an integrated air defence system. And so if a western fighter was flying over Eastern Europe during WW III then a Flogger would only be a fraction of that air defence.

I have no access to the real radar capability of Soviet Floggers or the true kill probability of the R-23. So it's not Spitfire v Me 109. It's all about the electronic capability and not the instantaneous turn rate.

 

[J_P_C]

Well if you look at the MiG-29 which is certainly a magnitude ahead of the MiG-23 and see how that fares against western fighters.

The Flogger was part of an integrated air defence system. And so if a western fighter was flying over Eastern Europe during WW III then a Flogger would only be a fraction of that air defence.

I have no access to the real radar capability of Soviet Floggers or the true kill probability of the R-23. So it's not Spitfire v Me 109. It's all about the electronic capability and not the instantaneous turn rate.

0.6 for R-23R - B52 sized targed no ECM used - of course it is given as courves set, depends of all relevant factors but 0.6 as single number is locating it around middle performance. Probably you have noticed large aerodynamic surfaces of this missile - easy to conclude how lousy maneouvring preformace it had. About radar performance MF had detection range around 50-40km for the B52 RCS size target, my guess is that MLD had may be 15% better detection range and main difference between MF and MLD was better resistance to the jamming (bigger frequency range) and higher degree af automatisation in a term of radar operation.

 

[The Basket]

If I am going up against a Phoenix armed Tomcat in a MiG-23 with those figures then pardon me i am ejecting on the runway. Cuts the middleman out.

 

[J_P_C]

finally you have understood technological advantage west had - pretty much ever, over Soviets or Russians. Only period when gap have been slightly smaller was 1960s. Then digital revolution has begun and capability gap has grown again.