Mig-23 flaw?

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wonder if you could go mach 2 then swing the wings fully forward.

That would be pure hilarity.

Maybe so, if you were Biffffff Armstrong, Esq. You thought cranking up the gear on a Wildcat was tough, good golly!

 

[J_P_C]

Do you have any details on the Flogger in Polish service?

Was it liked or disliked.

I think so - ive spend couple years of my career serving with 28th fighter regiment - only unit in PAF equipped with this type.

 

[J_P_C]

I wonder if you could go mach 2 then swing the wings fully forward.

That would be pure hilarity.

- fortunately you can't - physics prevent you from such experiment - or, to be more precise physics will end such experiment before you will reach even 1.2Ma - but the end will be spectacular for sure

 

[J_P_C]

One of the comments in "Red Eagles" was an account of an encounter in which the MiG 23 entered a spin, followed by engine failure. The pilot, rather than lose one of the valuable MiGs, elected to dead stick it in, and did so without additional damage. The fuselage had been twisted in the spin causing the engine fan to contact structure. A question for J_P_C: How often did spins occur and with what damage. I suspect Biff would enjoy this book as there were many sessions of various MiGs with F-15s

we have lost 0 airplanes due to spin

 

[J_P_C]

Details in the book indicate the three wing positions were controlled by the pilot with a manual control while the F-14s had a slight advantage as their wing sweep was changing automatically by conditions on the aircraft. One of the things I learned from the book was the vertical white stripe from the top of the instrument panel to the bottom was to aid the pilot to center the stick if in a spin or other diversion from normal flight. Center the stick and wait, it will correct itself. I assume if you have altitude. When I learned about the white stripe, I have seen it personally in two MiG 17s and in museum cockpit photos of 17s, 19s, and 23s.

considering design of wing swept mechanism i would say wing stuck is highly unlikely - especially in 72deg position when forces acting on elements of swept mechanism are in their lowest magnitude.... white strip has come from conclusions from Soviet space program - they noticed that such feature helps to regain spatial awareness after heavy aerobatics - well, true or not -23 had vertical white stripe across instrument desk but other Soviet made types have not (it must be science in the kind of radiation resistant paint from soviet arsenal )

 

[The Basket]

If I remember rightly it was an Iraqi pilot giving an interview. He said about the wings swept back being an eject.

The Flogger was a by the numbers aircraft and in the Polish or other warpac countries, the Flogger would have been the gold medal until the Fulcrum appeared. So the Flogger pilots would have been considered the top fighter squadron of that air force.

Did the Polish pilot like the Flogger?
1 quote I read that they quickly realized that the Flogger is a energy fighter and not a turn and roll. So slash and grab.

 

[J_P_C]

If I remember rightly it was an Iraqi pilot giving an interview. He said about the wings swept back being an eject.

The Flogger was a by the numbers aircraft and in the Polish or other warpac countries, the Flogger would have been the gold medal until the Fulcrum appeared. So the Flogger pilots would have been considered the top fighter squadron of that air force.

Did the Polish pilot like the Flogger?
1 quote I read that they quickly realized that the Flogger is a energy fighter and not a turn and roll. So slash and grab.

from my conversation with pilots i would say their view of this airplane was mixed, some of them liked this airplane some of them not. From engineering perspective i can confirm that -23 was rugged and reliable design but in a years 1990s hopelessly outdated in the field of avionics. And this is the main source of mixed pilots feelings - workload for the pilot was simply too high - it was something like newer version of P-38 Lightning, incredible airplane but usually pilot was too busy flying them to be ready for fight. Interesting catch i made, was that most of the pilots who liked this airplane have been very, very professional and it was easy to work with them for me as an engineer.

 

[The Basket]

Do you believe the MiG-23 was a more advanced airplane than the MiG-21? Was it ahead of the Fishbed in terms of automation?

I did read the Flogger had more knobs and doodads than a cathedral organ and so you had to fly the airplane and be ahead of the airplane. You didn't want to lose control cos once she goes she ain't getting back.

Flying it was a full time job and so actually dogfighting in one must have been a nightmare. Although the benign land and take off character probably saved many a pilot.

 

[J_P_C]

Do you believe the MiG-23 was a more advanced airplane than the MiG-21? Was it ahead of the Fishbed in terms of automation?

I did read the Flogger had more knobs and doodads than a cathedral organ and so you had to fly the airplane and be ahead of the airplane. You didn't want to lose control cos once she goes she ain't getting back.

Flying it was a full time job and so actually dogfighting in one must have been a nightmare. Although the benign land and take off character probably saved many a pilot.

Mig-23 was a step change over -21 but mainly in a term of possible tactics. 4 hour endurance is a magnitude change over slightly less than 1hour. R-60 was/is missile with performance quantum leap vs. R-3/K-13 from -21 arsenal (i'm not even mentioning RS-2US), and -23 have medium range option in a form of R23/24 missiles. EOS system also giving significant edge over -21. Next in line is engine performance. Radar had range at least 2x bigger than this one on MiG-21 (independent of version). In PAF -21 nickname was nail vs. -23 named simply super nail - i think somehow it is reflecting reality. Of course last version of MiG-21Bis is making whole comparison less obvious .

 

[The Basket]

I would assume the Flogger would have got helmet mounted sight and better radar and R-73 Archer and R-27 and maybe new engine blah blah blah which would have been quite a fighter.

I would assume that would have been case had WarPac carried on.

Was the Polish Flogger equal to the Soviet Floggers? What About Czech or DDR or Hungarian?

Was the Fulcrum replacing the Flogger? And was the Su-27 offered to Poland?

 

[J_P_C]

I would assume the Flogger would have got helmet mounted sight and better radar and R-73 Archer and R-27 and maybe new engine blah blah blah which would have been quite a fighter.

I would assume that would have been case had WarPac carried on.

Was the Polish Flogger equal to the Soviet Floggers? What About Czech or DDR or Hungarian?

Was the Fulcrum replacing the Flogger? And was the Su-27 offered to Poland?

upgrades described by you have been done for Mig-23-98 - two of them has been build through modification of MLD version airplanes - but Russians never found customers for this instead they rather rapidly removed -23 from inventory.
Polish Flogger was 17 and 21 production batches units in export variant - Soviets always treated Poland as "high risk allay (shoot before use)" none of equipment issued to us from USSR was in configuration even close to this Soviets keep for them Czech and Hungary was treated in pretty similar way (outer ring of trust ) as Poland. As far as i know DDR (yes the story that they have been more communist than Soviets is real one - Germans have tendency to perfect everything including crappy ideology ) have received airplanes close to or in Soviet standard, and i think Bulgaria was treated similar to DDR.
Su-27 from very beginning was treated by Russians/Soviets as a prime equipment. When they have started selling MiG29 across WP Su-27 has been kept in deep shadow of secrecy. When everybody learned about this airplane WP has been freshly gone and everybody enjoyed short break from serious military spending. After everybody realized that war is still in fashion and even more acceptable way of doing business than was before, arms market in Central/East Europe have been closed for Russians and in possession of Uncle Sam - at least this part of history looks this way in my personal opinion.

 

[The Basket]

It would have been a shame to make war on our Polish brothers.

Would the Poles have fought willingly for WarPac or would they have turned the moment they had the chance? The Poles I have spoken to have had no love for USSR or the communist era.

 

[J_P_C]

It would have been a shame to make war on our Polish brothers.

Would the Poles have fought willingly for WarPac or would they have turned the moment they had the chance? The Poles I have spoken to have had no love for USSR or the communist era.

Hard to answer on your question - when napalm and Rockeyes are falling on your head it is little time for ideology. Soviets have solved this problem with idea that Polish Army in a case of conventional war will be acted on secondary strategic direction independently (less chance for sudden switch of side). In their strategic plans our target was Denmark. 28th fighter regiment only purpose in a case of war was to try take out AWACS orbiting somewhere between Bornholm and Danish Islands. Per our calculations it was one way mission - we didn't expected that will be second day of war for us, if so rather as foot infantry than Air Force. Fortunately for me i know all this only from the stories told by my mates. I've started my university and have been commissioned in times when we just switch colors of pencils - for me blue force always been friendly and reds not as much.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm really enjoying this conversation.

Did your squadron encounter and escort NATO planes while either you or they were on patrol? Do you have any insights or anecdotes about that?

 

[J_P_C]

28th regiment base was Slupsk- Redzikowo - just 1 minute flying time from Baltic sea coast. Encounters over the sea were rather on daily basis. Later i've been transferred to the Squadron under Navy command and part of my job were flight engineer duties. Meetings over the sea with allies and "not as much allies" are sometimes funny experience - well with exception of Russians - their sense of humor is not existent - at least in air.
I have couple stories, both heard from others and from personal experiences - but things like this are marked as a "beer required" .....

 

[The Basket]

If you say the Soviets didn't trust the Poles then why give em MiGs in the first place?

The Poles did get the Fulcrum during the communist era.

What was the communist era like for you? Did you feel any different in the modern era? How free were you or did you feel?

I would have to assume the Polish secret police were less fanatic than the DDR.

 

[J_P_C]

Soviets have give to Poland nothing - they sold us military equipment with price tag only slightly lower than Uncle Sam is charging us now (relatively). And they never sold to Poland prime class equipment. What they sold to us always have been in "WP standard tier II". Tier I equipment have been sold to DDR, Bulgaria sometimes to Czech rarely to Hungary. MiG-29 have been delivered to us in lowest possible manufacturing standard and i think we have been last recipient of this hardware.
I always thought that polish version of communism was fake one, SB (secret police) in 1970s and 80s wasn't as effective like their East German or Soviet collogues - that was reason why we have finally had Solidarity and all this mess with collapsing eastern block. Worth to realize that all this happened in the way that couple guys have sit at the same table, talked and agreed that this kind of life is part of past from this moment onward.
My life under communism was great - i have loving family, health and i've been young. Ladies here are beautiful - would you expect more? I always keep away from politics - funny story with this -once time May 1st - we had parades in every city - for teenagers participation was generally obligatory. In my school ive been only person who wasn't member of one official organization - you can imagine all this folks with red banners marching across city - and break - "now young peoples not associated but supporting us" - and it was me with white-red national flag.... Next 6 months my dad have told this to his friends as a joke story.....
From this i've learned that keeping sense of humor even in worst situation creating "bright side of life" like in Monthy Python's song.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Soviets have give to Poland nothing - they sold us military equipment with price tag only slightly lower than Uncle Sam is charging us now (relatively). And they never sold to Poland prime class equipment. What they sold to us always have been in "WP standard tier II". Tier I equipment have been sold to DDR, Bulgaria sometimes to Czech rarely to Hungary. MiG-29 have been delivered to us in lowest possible manufacturing standard and i think we have been last recipient of this hardware.
I always thought that polish version of communism was fake one, SB (secret police) in 1970s and 80s wasn't as effective like their East German or Soviet collogues - that was reason why we have finally had Solidarity and all this mess with collapsing eastern block. Worth to realize that all this happened in the way that couple guys have sit at the same table, talked and agreed that this kind of life is part of past from this moment onward.
My life under communism was great - i have loving family, health and i've been young. Ladies here are beautiful - would you expect more? I always keep away from politics - funny story with this -once time May 1st - we had parades in every city - for teenagers participation was generally obligatory. In my school ive been only person who wasn't member of one official organization - you can imagine all this folks with red banners marching across city - and break - "now young peoples not associated but supporting us" - and it was me with white-red national flag.... Next 6 months my dad have told this to his friends as a joke story.....
From this i've learned that keeping sense of humor even in worst situation creating "bright side of life" like in Monthy Python's song.

Great information and thank you for sharing! It seems like today (at least from what I've seen here on US News) that the Polish people are very supportive of the US. I believe Poland was one of the few nations that supported the US in Iraq.

On another note - after the Solidary movement and the break from the Soviet camp, were you still serving when Poland picked up US equipment? I've worked on East Bloc equipment in the US (L29s, L39s, Iskras, MiG-15 UTI, MiG-17, MiG-21) and found them real easy to work on when we had the right tools and manpower to move things around.

 

[J_P_C]

Yes i've terminated my service in 2004 - we have been already part of NATO. Next 15 years i've spend working for GE, since two years i'm trying to organize my life slightly different way. Right now i'm working under my own brand providing engineering services - mainly designing specialized machines and building prototypes of whatever i've designed for different customers. Iskra was airplane i had plenty maintenance experiences of , also with Mig-23, An-28/M-28, and some with Su-22, Mig-29, Mig-21 Mi-2 and W-3 helicopters.

 

[The Basket]

What info did you have about the west?

We all lived in mansions and drove Cadillacs?

My view of Communist Poland would have been black and white with belching smoke factories and families eating turnips. Constant grey. Driving FSOs....

I did visit Romania in 1984....the year I visited wasn't a good sign. Mamia which I now believe to be a Russian spa town. It was truly odd. Like a jigsaw missing a piece or a itch you couldn't scratch. It was a nice place but not for me.