Mig-23 flaw?

[SaparotRob]

That was a great video. I wandered off and watched his vid on UPA's. Cool stuff. I love UFO stories.

 

[special ed]

I had guessed we had MiGs because Aviation Week and newspapers noted General Electric got a contract to overhaul Egypt's MiG 21 engines and how did they know how? The newspaper had an account of the Colonel killed in the MiG 23 and my thought was why and how was he in a MiG 23. Years later, in the book, The Colonel died because he wouldn't listen during checkout. He was due to retire in weeks and wanted to fly the MiG 23 before he separated. The book tells that when the MiG 23 throttle is opened and at speed, the pilot can not just pull back, because there is a built in slow reduction in speed to prevent pitch up with rapid reduction. The Col. didn't want to hear it so it was determined he thought the engine ran away and ejected.

 

[The Basket]

Stuff already in public domain so the idea that the Flogger can out run and has the turning circle of a bus is not new.

Surprised by how aggressively the Flogger was flown. Although it's use of boom and zoom tactics are logical.

Next question would be where the Floggers came from as I don't think I have read definitive proof either way.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'd love to learn about the spare parts acquisition missions.

 

[The Basket]

Very interesting to learn if they learned anything from the Flogger that flew across Europe and crashes in Belgium.

A lot of the back end was intact and this was a proper Soviet flogger.

Here is a tip. Don't google Flogger. Unless you have an open mind.

 

[special ed]

It's all in the book. Aircraft from around the world along with parts.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Stuff already in public domain so the idea that the Flogger can out run and has the turning circle of a bus is not new.

Surprised by how aggressively the Flogger was flown. Although it's use of boom and zoom tactics are logical.

Next question would be where the Floggers came from as I don't think I have read definitive proof either way.

What's interesting here is you're hearing it first hand from someone who actually had the opportunity to train against a MIG-23. Belenko might have been available for information, I knew he flew MiG-17s, Don't know if he had time in -23s

I always heard that the MiG-23s came from Egypt, again, Just a rumor. The F7s might have came from there too as well as Iraq before hostilities

 

[The Basket]

If the Flogger was Egyptian then I would expect Egyptian pilots who are trained on Flogger.

A pilot will tell you the full story. It's true capability and the weakness and strength. Plus use of radar and the missile envelope.

Although it will depend if the Soviets gave the Egyptians a proper Soviet spec Flogger or an export junker.

I love the idea of the Flogger having no engine limiters and will go as fast as it can until it melts. With the swept wings back it must be a rocketship.

 

[special ed]

Okay, you made me get the book down and look for the countries that supplied the MiGs. I must have pulled most bookmarks, but while looking I came across this quote: "We never had a good supply of engines, [He's talking about MiG 23] and I don't think we ever got more than about 30 hours on a motor before we had to pull it and rebuild it. We operated ten Floggers and on our best day we probably had six running; it was usually three or four. The problem with the Flogger was also that you had to pull the plane in half to get to the engine in or out. I would walk into a hangar and see up to seven of our ten broken in half, and would ask myself, how many more times are we going to be able to put them together without someone making a mistake? "
That is from Red Eagles

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I love the idea of the Flogger having no engine limiters and will go as fast as it can until it melts. With the swept wings back it must be a rocketship.

IIRC I remember reading the MiG-25 is that way. My father in law said the same for the F-111, F-106 and B-1B but that was due to aircraft already having excess thrust close to VNE

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Okay, you made me get the book down and look for the countries that supplied the MiGs. I must have pulled most bookmarks, but while looking I came across this quote: "We never had a good supply of engines, [He's talking about MiG 23] and I don't think we ever got more than about 30 hours on a motor before we had to pull it and rebuild it. We operated ten Floggers and on our best day we probably had six running; it was usually three or four. The problem with the Flogger was also that you had to pull the plane in half to get to the engine in or out. I would walk into a hangar and see up to seven of our ten broken in half, and would ask myself, how many more times are we going to be able to put them together without someone making a mistake? "
That is from Red Eagles

This is typical for most MiGs I've been around (15, 17, 19, 21). Don't know about the MiG-25. If you have the manpower and the right tooling they actually come apart pretty easy. L29 and L39, same thing.

 

[ARTESH]

If the Flogger was Egyptian then I would expect Egyptian pilots who are trained on Flogger.

One of Iraqi planes shot down in early days of Iran - Iraq war, Was Egyptian. He was recorded as "MiG Pilot, Captain, 35 years Old, Egyptian Air Force". Flogger or Fishbed Pilot, no info.

 

[J_P_C]

If the Flogger was Egyptian then I would expect Egyptian pilots who are trained on Flogger.

A pilot will tell you the full story. It's true capability and the weakness and strength. Plus use of radar and the missile envelope.

Although it will depend if the Soviets gave the Egyptians a proper Soviet spec Flogger or an export junker.

I love the idea of the Flogger having no engine limiters and will go as fast as it can until it melts. With the swept wings back it must be a rocketship.

- duration of this experience will be quite limited with 90kg/s fuel consumption in such case D

 

[J_P_C]

Okay, you made me get the book down and look for the countries that supplied the MiGs. I must have pulled most bookmarks, but while looking I came across this quote: "We never had a good supply of engines, [He's talking about MiG 23] and I don't think we ever got more than about 30 hours on a motor before we had to pull it and rebuild it. We operated ten Floggers and on our best day we probably had six running; it was usually three or four. The problem with the Flogger was also that you had to pull the plane in half to get to the engine in or out. I would walk into a hangar and see up to seven of our ten broken in half, and would ask myself, how many more times are we going to be able to put them together without someone making a mistake? "
That is from Red Eagles

well - this is something about technical culture - in Poland normally we had no problems with premature engine removal and we easily reached 300 hours between engine overhauls as it was stated in manuals, of course we had malfunctions - most significant were cracks in combustors, and yes - spare engine were problem because -23 was treated as a non-standard equipment and maintenance base for this type we had in country was not sufficient - nearest engine overhaul shop was somewhere on Ukraine... And engine swap was not big problem you may do this within 4 hours with well trained crew and with all needed tools, GSE, spares and consumables in hand.

 

[The Basket]

well - this is something about technical culture - in Poland normally we had no problems with premature engine removal and we easily reached 300 hours between engine overhauls as it was stated in manuals, of course we had malfunctions - most significant were cracks in combustors, and yes - spare engine were problem because -23 was treated as a non-standard equipment and maintenance base for this type we had in country was not sufficient - nearest engine overhaul shop was somewhere on Ukraine... And engine swap was not big problem you may do this within 4 hours with well trained crew and with all needed tools, GSE, spares and consumables in hand.

Do you have any details on the Flogger in Polish service?

Was it liked or disliked.

 

[special ed]

One of the comments in "Red Eagles" was an account of an encounter in which the MiG 23 entered a spin, followed by engine failure. The pilot, rather than lose one of the valuable MiGs, elected to dead stick it in, and did so without additional damage. The fuselage had been twisted in the spin causing the engine fan to contact structure. A question for J_P_C: How often did spins occur and with what damage. I suspect Biff would enjoy this book as there were many sessions of various MiGs with F-15s

 

[The Basket]

A few issues with the Flogger that I am aware of.

If the wings are stuck in the full Swept back then it's eject. No attempt to land.

The Flogger has different handling character depends on wing sweep so you would need to know 3 airplanes rather than one.

One comment that I have read is that the landing and take off is pretty ok and give false hope!

 

[special ed]

Details in the book indicate the three wing positions were controlled by the pilot with a manual control while the F-14s had a slight advantage as their wing sweep was changing automatically by conditions on the aircraft. One of the things I learned from the book was the vertical white stripe from the top of the instrument panel to the bottom was to aid the pilot to center the stick if in a spin or other diversion from normal flight. Center the stick and wait, it will correct itself. I assume if you have altitude. When I learned about the white stripe, I have seen it personally in two MiG 17s and in museum cockpit photos of 17s, 19s, and 23s.

 

[The Basket]

I wonder if you could go mach 2 then swing the wings fully forward.

That would be pure hilarity.

 

[The Basket]

And because you said white stripe I have now got seven nation army in my head.

Sigh.

Duh duh duh duh duh duh duh.