Mig-23 flaw?

The Basket · Dec 20, 2020

If you're a Flogger pilot in 1982 in the WarPac then what am I up against and what am I not.

B-52s? C-130s? Phantoms? I don't think that's a bad thing. Maybe F-15A is the only fly in the soup but everything else is fair go. F-111 and IDS Tornado are not shooting back! Alpha Jet? Mirage 3? Draken?

J_P_C · Dec 20, 2020

The Basket said:
If you're a Flogger pilot in 1982 in the WarPac then what am I up against and what am I not.

B-52s? C-130s? Phantoms? I don't think that's a bad thing. Maybe F-15A is the only fly in the soup but everything else is fair go. F-111 and IDS Tornado are not shooting back! Alpha Jet? Mirage 3? Draken?

Somehow true, from specific point of view this airplanes representing similar technological level, than you are coming to the details and realising what in your equipment is just pure propaganda and what is reality. Since 1980's avionics become most important part of combat airplane. In this term 23rd immidiately become outdated. You have to remember about specific aspect in Soviet approach to the aircraft technology - they have been pretty reluctant to modify line serving machines. 23rd which comes to the service in specific configuration has been scrapped 16 years later in exactly the same configuration nothing like F-16s MLU process or Tornado comes through gradual update programs.

The Basket · Dec 20, 2020

I am not saying the Flogger was a god tier fighter. But I am not saying it was junk.

It was a fighter which could perform limited mission goals based on it's capability.

J_P_C · Dec 20, 2020

The Basket said:
I am not saying the Flogger was a god tier fighter. But I am not saying it was junk.

It was a fighter which could perform limited mission goals based on it's capability.

This is along with my opinion - difficult machine requiring very skilled pilot to perform as designed. WIth highly skilled pilot it was deadly beast with some chances even to stand against next gen. machines like F15/16 or Mig29. I've seen gun cameras pictures taken during NATO exercises confirming this , and personally i've observed mockup dogfight against MiG29 - result was draw - of course Mig29 pilot played fair and he haven't used helmet sight ....

Glider · Dec 20, 2020

The Basket said:
I am not saying the Flogger was a god tier fighter. But I am not saying it was junk.

It was a fighter which could perform limited mission goals based on it's capability.

I totally agree, in the FAA (mid 70's) we were told to consider it roughly equal to an early F4, which sounds about right. It would no doubt struggle against the later F4, early F16 and Lightning but a lot of Nato countries were equipped with F104G, F5A, Mirage III/5 and some F100's were in use in Turkey. Against these the Mig 23 was a serious threat

Nodeo-Franvier · Dec 22, 2020

Glider said:
I totally agree, in the FAA (mid 70's) we were told to consider it roughly equal to an early F4, which sounds about right. It would no doubt struggle against the later F4, early F16 and Lightning but a lot of Nato countries were equipped with F104G, F5A, Mirage III/5 and some F100's were in use in Turkey. Against these the Mig 23 was a serious threat

Even Mig-23MLD variant?

J_P_C · Dec 23, 2020

Nodeo-Franvier said:
Even Mig-23MLD variant?

MLD had number of improvements over export variants, better radar, better thermolocator, capability of use more sophisticated air to ground weapon, better radio set, newer RSBN system, RSDN which was absent on export versions, newer datalink replacing then absolete Lazur system, newer IFF - basically everything inside of this airplane was different than on export variants. Could be this carefull "crippling" of the export variant partially is behind it's not quite deserved fame of piece of junk.

ARTESH · Mar 19, 2021

Well, here are some statistics from Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcats to compare!

1- Iran has ordered 80 Tomcats, all except 1 were delivered.

2- 2 of them were downed in Shah's time. Before 1979.

3- 12 of them were downed during Iran / Iraq war, 6 were victims of Friendly fire, 4 were downed by Sandwitch attacks by Iraqi Air Force Mirages, 1 was defected, 1 unknown reason. 1980 - 1989.

4- 4 were downed 1989 onwards!

5- Iranian Tomcats shot down 165 Iraqi planes, confirmed by both sides, as well as western nations! Of cource the exact number could be difrent!

6- 92 of these, were difrent models / versions of MiG, Including MiG-21, 23 and 25's

7- 8 Iranian Ace pilots, all Tomcat pilots, have shot down 68 Iraqi planes.

I hope it helps you a little!

SaparotRob · Mar 19, 2021

ARTESH said:
Well, here are some statistics from Iranian Air Force F-14 Tomcats to compare!

1- Iran has ordered 80 Tomcats, all except 1 were delivered.

2- 2 of them were downed in Shah's time. Before 1979.

3- 12 of them were downed during Iran / Iraq war, 6 were victims of Friendly fire, 4 were downed by Sandwitch attacks by Iraqi Air Force Mirages, 1 was defected, 1 unknown reason. 1980 - 1989.

4- 4 were downed 1989 onwards!

5- Iranian Tomcats shot down 165 Iraqi planes, confirmed by both sides, as well as western nations! Of cource the exact number could be difrent!

6- 92 of these, were difrent models / versions of MiG, Including MiG-21, 23 and 25's

7- 8 Iranian Ace pilots, all Tomcat pilots, have shot down 68 Iraqi planes.

I hope it helps you a little!

Well, being from Long Island New York, Go Grumman!

elbmc1969 · Mar 19, 2021

I got to see the first test article of the F-14's wing pivot section. Massive piece of titanium ...

Dimlee · Mar 25, 2021

ARTESH said:
3- 12 of them were downed during Iran / Iraq war, 6 were victims of Friendly fire, 4 were downed by Sandwitch attacks by Iraqi Air Force Mirages, 1 was defected, 1 unknown reason. 1980 - 1989.

6 - friendly fire. SAM or else?

ARTESH · Mar 25, 2021

Dimlee said:
6 - friendly fire. SAM or else?

All 6 planes were recorded as friendly fire for some reasons, but here are details, published after 30 years:

1- 14 April, 1981 - Captain Jafar Mardani / 1Lt. GH. Abdolshahi --- Erected spin after refueling - both crew KIA.

2- 15 July, 1982 - 1Lt. Hassan Harandi / 1Lt. Ahmad Roustaiee --- Damaged in Air Battle - Both crew ejected and rescued by friendly forces. The statue with Iraqi pilot standing on a F-14, is made by remains of this Tomcat.

3- 11 August, 1984 - Colonel S. M. H. Al-e Aqa / Captain Mohammad Rostam pour --- no info about this incident! Col. Al-e Aqa KIA, RIO rescued by Navy SAR team.

4- 24 March, 1985 - Major Abbas Hazin / 1Lt. S. H. Hosseini --- This plane was hit by Hawk Missile, Pilot ejected and rescued by Navy SAR team, RIO ejected but failed to control himself and drowned in Persian Gulf.

5- 2 June, 1986 - Captain Arsalan Khademian / 1Lt. Ahmad Roustaiee --- hit by Hawk, both crew ejected abd rescued by friendly forces.

6- 11 July, 1987 - Major Alireza Bi-taraf / Captain Mansour Khanpour --- planed downed after hyrauluc failure, both crew ejected, but Major Bi-Taraf exactly kanded on burning remains of plane and dies of burns, immediatly.

Dimlee · Mar 26, 2021

Thanks, Artesh. So it seems that from 6, only 4 can be suspected as the friendly fire. 2, 4, and 5 - hit by friendly AAM, if I read it correctly.

Mesan · Mar 26, 2021

It is known that Colonel Al-e Aqha's Tomcat was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-23ML

The Basket · Mar 28, 2021

The Flogger shot something down?

That is one for the books.

ARTESH · Mar 29, 2021

Dimlee said:
Thanks, Artesh. So it seems that from 6, only 4 can be suspected as the friendly fire. 2, 4, and 5 - hit by friendly AAM, if I read it correctly.

Yes, You`re right.

Mesan said:
It is known that Colonel Al-e Aqha's Tomcat was shot down by an Iraqi Mig-23ML

no sign of any MiGs over Persian Gulf that day! Mirages and Saudi F-15s!

The Basket said:
The Flogger shot something down?

That is one for the books.

Iran claims that an Iranian Airforce F-5 pilot shot down an Iraqi MiG-25!

FLYBOYJ · Jun 4, 2021

F-14 RIO has some revealing things about the MiG-21 and MiG-23

special ed · Jun 4, 2021

A really great video which gives a view to these books: America's Secret MiG squadron by Col. Gaillard Peck,Jr. and Red Eagles by Steve Davies, and in similar way, Tonopah Test Range activities in: Skunk Works by Ben Rich, and Dark Eagles by Curtis Peebles. If this video was of interest, check out these books. They are old enough it makes me wonder what they are doing now. A Quick story, before the American MiGs were publicly revealed, I was in Thibodeaux, Louisiana on a service call and I had time to goof off so I went to the USAF recruiter to ask for photos. While he was digging out the photos, I noticed a very good shot of a SR-71 landing but taken from above. He said he took it in Japan with 1000mm lens. That opened conversation to photography and I commented, eventually when our MiGs were no longer classified, I could photo them at a Nellis open house. At that point I was making an educated guess about us having MiGs and where they were. He said, "They're not at Nellis, they're....". He caught himself and smiled.

FLYBOYJ · Jun 4, 2021

I was on the F117 program and we knew there was something going on with Soviet aircraft and the government also used the "UFO" cover story to hide a lot of the stuff.

FLYBOYJ · Jun 4, 2021

Some of the guys I worked with saw the white F7s

Mig-23 flaw?

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