MIG vs SABRE

[JoeB]

Found a link showing Soviet Aces in Korea....

Any comments or corrections???

Here's an alternative accounting (by me) for Nikolai Sutyagin's score which gets a pretty different answer, dealing with the statements in the original accounting one by one. The original doesn't deal at all with competing claims by other Soviet (or Chinese) pilots. If a Soviet ace was credited and any US plane was downed in air combat, the credit is viewed as verified, even if that was the only US loss that day and many other MiG pilots were also credited with victories the same day. That's misleading IMO. In addition there are quite a few errors as to what types Sutyagin was credited with on what day, which by coicidence or not all end up making his US record-verified score appear higher. As a general introduction those articles might be OK but I would take the correlation/verfication with US records part with many grains of salt.
Acepilots Discussions

Joe

 

[fer-de-lance]

For example the F-86 had hardly any non MiG-15 targets by which to run up its score; in one combat v. Chinese prop bombers it practically anihilated them, even though MiG's also intervened. If it had that opportunity every day, it's ratio would be far higher.

The result of the "Taehwa-do Massacre" was that there were no further attempts by the Communist forces to use bombers during the Korean War.

The debâcle may have had even more far-reaching consequences for the later Taiwan Strait Conflict.

The PLAAF realized how vulnerable their bombers were which limited their use to attacks on Nationalist-held islands (Yijiang-shan and Ta-chen in 1955) which were at the limit of the range of Nationalist F-47N fighters. Even during the heavy shelling of Matsu, Wu-chiu and Quemoy at various times in the 1950's, the PLAAF were inhibited from using their bombers.

The Taehwa-do battle was all the more remarkable because of the US ability to concentrate the whole 4th FIW at the right spot and at almost exact time when the bombers arrived. We now know it was excellent work by USAF signals intelligence.

Chinese sources also confirmed that the one MiG claimed by George Davis was, in fact from the Chinese 7th air regiment, 3rd (Fighter) Air Division. The pilot, Mou, Dun-kang (牟敦康) was a deputy leader of an 8-plane flight (副大队长). Chinese accounts claimed that Mou lost control and spun in but Davis had gun camera footage to show that Mou had some help.

It is also clear that the damaged fighters in the Chinese units subsequently written off were not listed as losses. They are listed as ... "damaged" (surprise, surprise!)

 

[pbfoot]

something that might interest TV viewers in North America in Dec 19 2007 the PBS show NOVA a premiere science show is doing a piece on the Mig /Sabre called Missing In Mig Alley . I'll wager it will be superior to Dogfights by a fair margin if equal to their previous docs
NOVA | Missing in MiG Alley | PBS

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I gotta remember the 19th....

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

"Hear it from the horse's mouth" would be the saying I guess, but here is a short film by the USAF on it's evaluation of the Mig-15. A wee bit of propaganda near the end, as the narrator is sure to tell you of the 13:1 ratio of superiority over the Mig. Interestingly enough, no comparison made on the weapons on the two aircraft.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_yFydYu1o

 

[drgondog]

"Hear it from the horse's mouth" would be the saying I guess, but here is a short film by the USAF on it's evaluation of the Mig-15. A wee bit of propaganda near the end, as the narrator is sure to tell you of the 13:1 ratio of superiority over the Mig. Interestingly enough, no comparison made on the weapons on the two aircraft.




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_yFydYu1o

They both had advantages and disadvantages.

The 50s' with radar computing gunsight was more accurate, much faster rate of fire and had a greater effective range. Above 40,000 feet, the API's would seldom start a fire until the MiG dropped to lower altitude and more oxygen available.

The MiG had far more firepower and was superior in short range in context of lethality, but slower rate of fire and ballistics meant less chance of a hit in a manuevering fight. Against B-29s, neither of these 'deficiencies' mattered.

An intangible was that the F-86 was considered a more stable gun platform also.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Former MiG-15 drivers I got to meet gave the same description of the MiGs big guns as Yeager made about the P-39's cannon - at range it seemed like you were lobbing bricks.

As a maintainer I loved the MiG-15 for its simplicity and those same characteristics were inherited in the L-29. Even though the F-86 was way more complicated and harder to work on, it was quite evident it was the superior aircraft in many respects.

 

[pbfoot]

Seeing how the Canadair Mk VI was the premiere Sabre with consideration given to the Aussie version with the 20mm I thought I'd share this little tidbit i found it's humourous and enlightning

This little story is directed at those of our group who did not have the opportunity to fly the Mk 6 Sabre. I post it here as a tribute to a thoroughbred and with the hope that the statute of limitations has run out.

Sometime in the late '50s I was tasked to do an acceptance test flight on a nearly-new un-tanked Sabre 6 that had just come out of its storage cocoon. The machine had just enough hours on it to do the pre-ferry flight testing and make the trip to France. What a beauty: no twists from over-stressing, no boot marks up and down the wings and a canopy that was crystal clear! To cap it all off, it was a one-in-a-million day for Grostenquin: CAFB (CAVU for the politically correct).

The test card took very little time and I ended up at angels 40 with a bit of fuel left. I happened to see a con reasonably close and gave chase. It turned out to be a Hun (F-100) dressed in aerobatic team livery all by himself, probably doing a test hop too. I was able to close on him until he noticed me and plugged in the burner and started to climb. I was able to follow quite easily as my machine was now getting pretty light and would climb at .95 mach at a good rate of up. The Hun pilot was getting a bit antsy as we passed through angels 50 and he still had this "model T" on his tail. He would come out of burner and I would close up easily, so he'd plug in the burner again. This went on 'til we passed through angels 54 and still going up at a good rate! I remember it clear as yesterday, I had .96 and still had 1000 feet/min up. I think he was getting a bit low on fuel with all the burner pumping he had to do so had resumed flying in normal power. This allowed me to pull abreast of him an give a waggle. He shook his head and stared as I broke away, momentarily touching 4 "G" albeit killing all speed in the process.

At this point I had 200 pounds of fuel on board. GT was right under the nose so a power off vertical descent and quick circuit got me onto the ground with enough juice to taxi in with.

Tex Gehman - 430 Sqn

 

[ppopsie]

Beautiful story!

I only regret that I couldn't afford to do that. Clean and clear canopy and smell of a brandnew aircraft is always good.

Wait! If so, the same kind of situation could happen if you fly a fighter of the other side of similar performance and characteristics.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great story Pb - I think that sums it up right there!

 

[Gnomey]

Great story pb!

 

['Lil'tyger]

i agree Flyboyj!!!!8)

 

[ppopsie]

I have been on Sabre vs Mig for years. The F-86 is beautiful and graceful but the Mig-15 is so small and cute!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I have love for both of them as I had to opportunity to work on them and actaully fly in a MiG-15 UTI, but I have to say I always had a yearning desire to get a MiG-15 within "the pipper."

 

[ppopsie]

FLYBOYJ sama,

What was the Mig's quality, or workmanship? I understand the F-86 was manufactured with then highest production technology. Was the Mig easy to maintain?

 

[Wildcat]

Seeing how the Canadair Mk VI was the premiere Sabre with consideration given to the Aussie version with the 20mm

Pb brings up an interesting question, which was the better Sabre varient produced, the CAC Avon Sabre or the Canadair version? I ask because my knowledge of early jets is sorely lacking and I have read over the years that each version mentioned claims to be the better of the two. Could someone please enlighten me.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FLYBOYJ sama,

What was the Mig's quality, or workmanship? I understand the F-86 was manufactured with then highest production technology. Was the MiG easy to maintain?

The F-86's quality was unsurpassed and I could say the same for Canadair built Sabers. I do know that there were some F-86s built with explosive bolts in the wing root area that caused some stress cracking. With the triple redundant hydraulic system of the F-86 there always seems to be some kind of little hydraulic leak or seep somewhere.

I worked on 2 MiG-15s. One of them I helped assemble and it was from Poland. It was a UTI and was "factory converted" from a single seat version. I think PZL did the mod and if I remember right it was done in 1956. The overall airframe was simple and well built, but the areas where the aircraft was modified had some issues. In the "turtleback" of the aft canopy were numerous clenched rivets, single and double sized rivets, drill starts and tool marks. It looks like a bunch of monkeys did the mod. The 2nd MiG was from China and was basically built like the first MiG without all the defects noted. I just did line maintenance on that one and it was a very easy aircraft to work on. The biggest issue was maintaining the brake system with nitrogen which is typical of all east-block built aircraft.

The MiG-15 was built well but a very simple aircraft. The Soviets basically took a first generation jet aircraft (systems wise) and swept back the wings and called it good. Although both aircraft are very endearing to me, I would always take the F-86 if I was placed in a hypothetical combat situation and I would also give the edge to the Saber as far as quality goes.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Pb brings up an interesting question, which was the better Sabre varient produced, the CAC Avon Sabre or the Canadair version? I ask because my knowledge of early jets is sorely lacking and I have read over the years that each version mentioned claims to be the better of the two. Could someone please enlighten me.

Personally I think the Avon Sabers were the top of the line. I think the Canadiar Mk IVs were better than the F-86F, but in either case I think if flown right and with a little luck the F-86 will maul a MiG-15 9 times out of 10.

 

[pbfoot]

Not that I'm a big numbers guy but I can't seem to find a "side by side "comparison of the 2 , did the CAC version keep the slats. Any how I read the articles included in the link below and there are some great stories the 2nd link being my favorite.the 3rd link has the MK6 numbers
Sabre Jet Classics
Flying The RCAF Sabre: Mark 6
SPAADS HOME PAGE

 

[Mitya]

Despite a loss rate of 10 to 1, by the time of the cease-fire the Communists had nearly 1,000 MIG-15s operational compared with only just over 250 US Sabres some of which were equipped as Fighter-Bombers.

Realy!!!?
FLYBOYJ the rights that is a myth. To read even here: -15
(26.06.50 - 27.07.53)
(26.06.50 - 27.07.53)
, 1952
So to say, a sight from the side.