renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Actually, if one looks at the kills of US Navy F9Fs versus Mig 15s, it supports strongly the lopsided kill ratio of the F86. The F9F would not be nearly as capable as the F86 in ACM.
MIG vs SABRE
- Thread starter Hobilar
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The real controversy if any about kill ratio in Korea is basically the same for F-86 or F9F. Sometimes the F-86 controversy is presented as one about USAF claims, but it's really not. The official air combat losses of the Soviets and Chinese, plus reasonably estimate of NK MiG-15 losses, add up to a fairly high % of the F-86 official victories, by WWII standards; and by same token WWII experience would have said not to take 800 credited victories literally as 800 downed MiG's, even before any of the opposing losses were made public. There's nothing very surprising there. The suprise is that Soviet and Chinese claims revealed since 90's, compiled in secret during the war (ie. 'propaganda' is not the explanation), exceed the USAF recorded air combat losses by so much. I would conclude that, basically, that's just what happened, the claims by MiG's over F-86's remarkably exceeded actual air combat losses of F-86's (as much as 10:1; bomber v fighter claims in WWII were sometimes as overstated, but fighter v fighter claims seldom were over such a sustained period). But not everybody accepts that.
If you look at the Soviet side of the at least 9 actions between F9F's and Soviet MiG's you find the same thing, more so actually. The only twist is that almost all Soviet claims in actions (which we can clearly see from US records were) against F9F's were erroneously recorded as F-80's, or in the one combat previously mentioned, F-94's. The Soviets claimed 15+ jets in those actions but downed just the 1 F9F. That is again, 1 F9F for which evidence which can be found in US records.
Joe
If you look at the Soviet side of the at least 9 actions between F9F's and Soviet MiG's you find the same thing, more so actually. The only twist is that almost all Soviet claims in actions (which we can clearly see from US records were) against F9F's were erroneously recorded as F-80's, or in the one combat previously mentioned, F-94's. The Soviets claimed 15+ jets in those actions but downed just the 1 F9F. That is again, 1 F9F for which evidence which can be found in US records.
Joe
Hello FLYBOY,
Not really if I quote JoeB:
the Chinese official loss total (224 MiG-15's, theirs only, air combat only) is seriously overstated, why would it be? The most detailed published Russian source to date on that air war (German/Seidov 'Krasnye d'iavoli...") gives a total of 319, Soviet only, air combat losses and mentions 295 case by case as I count it. The 1953 NK defector said the NK's lost 100 MiG-15's to all causes.....
So 224(319)Chinese + 295Soviet + 100NK = 619 or (714) MiG15 losses in contra to 80-100 F-86's.
Which would still leave my thoughts open regarding the (To my knowledge) missing 300 US pilots having/needing MiG kills.
Regards
Kruska
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yes you are correct from the US side with regards to the "overclaims." My point, from some Russian sources, the say the Soviet sources destroyed over 640 F-86s. I have also read claims for over 130 F-80s claimed by MiG-15s as well.
"If we add to such factors the usual overclaiming -in good faith, but overclaiming in the end- of any war, then we can understand why the Soviet 64th IAK claimed the unbelievable figure of 1,106 UN aircraft destroyed in the Korean War. (532 of them in the "Honcho Period," when only 142 Allied aircraft were actually downed by the Soviet MiG-15 pilots). So, many of those scores must be seen with a lot of skepticism, e.g: Mikhail Ponomaryev was credited with 11 kills, but when we analyze the dates of his claims, only 2 matched with admitted US losses! And he is not the only one."
Russian Aces of the Korean War
I have been to Colorado many times; may I ask you whereabouts you stay?
Regards
Kruska
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Hi Kruska - I live about 20 miles west of Denver in a community called green Mountain. Do you come here to ski?
As far as the Soviet claims - as stated, I thank a lot had to do with the 1,500 Rubles they received for their efforts.
US aircraft did have gun cameras but IMO they weren't the definging factor n verifying a kill. I have read that the MiG-15 did habit of burning or smoking when damaged in the right place and that would give the impression that the aircraft was fatally wounded.
That author fudges facts to make Soviet claims look less overstated than they were. So he's been heavily criticized by some die-hard MiG fans for saying the claims were overstated, but still his research isn't reliable IME. Nowhere near 142 UN a/c were downed by MiG's in the period he's talking about (April '51-end Jan '52). Only around 175 UN a/c were downed by MiG's in the whole war (v 150-some official totals released immediate postwar). That link also includes his analysis of victories of the leading Soviet ace N. Sutyagin, where he concludes 12 of his 21 official victories are supported by US records. I got at most 5 supported by US records, and in each case there are other equally plausible Soviet and Chinese claims competing for the single real US loss on 5 different days, so Sutyagin's real score was very likely less than 5. I also found that the author had 'mistaken' the type and sometimes dates of Sutyagin's victory credits in a number of cases, and such mistakes always increased the number of matches to US records, never decreased it as might be expected if the mistakes were accidental.
Re: Kruska: I don't see what the remaining question is between total US claims, and individual US claims. Go to:
Air Force Historical Research Agency - Aerial Victory Credits
search page for official victories, Air Force Historical Research Agency. Put War=Korea in the search form, and it will generate a list of credits by pilot. If you copy that into a spreadsheet and manipulate it, you'll see that the sum of individual credits is pretty close to the traditionally quoted totals of USAF victories, and again I got that 365 different F-86 pilots were credited with MiG-15's, from that list. I don't see any serious discrepancy between total victory credits and individual ones.
Victory credits v. enemy losses is of course a different topic. To reiterate, air combat losses of MiG-15's in Korea were apparently : 319 Soviet and 224 Chinese air combat losses from best Russian and Chinese sources, 50 NK air combat loss is my estimate based on defector's estimate of 100 *to all causes* (and the specific accounts of that defector, where otherwise checkable, were usually accurate).
Joe
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
So with that said Joe, we're looking about 593~ MiG-15s lost during Korea in air-to-air combat.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yes - know the area well - I actually work in the springs.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Actually I'm at the academy, but I do go down to Peterson on occasion.
At the Academy, what a beautifull place to work. Well so I guess you are in liaison with the 10th. It's a long time ago, but do they still display the Talons at the Chappell grounds? Just imagine 50 years of service for a jet aircraft, and it is still as good as ever, and they are supposed to stay in service till 2020 amazing isn't it.
Regards
Kruska
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I'm a civilian contractor working for the 306th FTS - the 10th ABW runs the facility.
I love working there, best job I ever had - as far as the Talons - yep - still there!
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
The T-38 is certainly one of the worlds most beloved aircraft. Not much more than pilots, engines and fuel, packaged superbly efficiently, a hot rod with manners. It will be a sad day (if ever) when it is replaced, for certainly its replacement will not be as capable a trainer, or as an aircraft.
If we had a poll, I would vote for it to be the best trainer in aviation history.
Burmese Bandit
Senior Airman
- 474
- Dec 5, 2008
Well make the best trainer poll then!!! 
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well make the best trainer poll then!!!
We have...
Matt308
Glock Perfection
All the way from 2006... comes a gem!
I just acquired the new book, 'MiG 15', by Gordon and Komissarov. The book is 576 pages of text and photographs and gives an exhaustive narrative of the design, production and operational history of the fighter. All foreign users are covered as well.
Within the chapter on the Soviet operations during the Korean War, a statistic is given that I haven't seen before. Citing " Russian sources ", the figure is given of 335 Soviet MiGs lost to all causes, with 268 to air combat. That's the lowest number I've seen.
Within the chapter on the Soviet operations during the Korean War, a statistic is given that I haven't seen before. Citing " Russian sources ", the figure is given of 335 Soviet MiGs lost to all causes, with 268 to air combat. That's the lowest number I've seen.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
That may not be too far off the mark, but then again the Soviets also claimed something like 183 F-80s over Korea - I think 185 were deployed through out the conflict! (I'm quoting this from memory). Based on information from various sources including our own JoeB, the actual score against Soviet flown MiG 15s over Korea could be as low as under 2 to 1 and as high as 3 to 1 depending who's numbers you want to believe.
OK Joe, Chime in any time!
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