Matt308
Glock Perfection
HALO. Lot's of work to do before that becomes front line. Add rations, ammo and weapon and... what about maintenance?
Military Members post pics of you in your uniforms.
- Thread starter DerAdlerIstGelandet
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P38 Pilot
Tech Sergeant
I dont like the future warrior uniform. Im happy with the BDUs and ACUs.
mkloby
Master Sergeant
I have finally had time to read that article. I must say - it does seem a little bit ridiculous. I guess I will believe something like that when it comes out and is operational - and I am wearing one! Absorbs unlimited machine gun rounds? It sounds great - and I bet there is science behind it - but just sounds too gadgety. Besides - what about cost. Seems more like a study in which certain elements will be adopted by the military.
Interesting to note that the Marines - who are first-class infantrymen who just happen often to arrive up the sharp end by alternative means, seem to echo my feelings...
Technology in aircraft is one thing, but to the infantryman who has to cart it round with him for miles and miles, only to see the stuff fail to do its job just when the opposition is starting to get uppity, is another...
The two most important pieces of technology the infantryman has are his rifle and his radio; not necessarily in that order. (And if you want my opinion, people who ride into battle in armoured vehicles are not real infantrymen; they are more, say, Panzer Grenadiers. I have two feet, and they hardly ever have mechanical failures!)
Technology in aircraft is one thing, but to the infantryman who has to cart it round with him for miles and miles, only to see the stuff fail to do its job just when the opposition is starting to get uppity, is another...
The two most important pieces of technology the infantryman has are his rifle and his radio; not necessarily in that order. (And if you want my opinion, people who ride into battle in armoured vehicles are not real infantrymen; they are more, say, Panzer Grenadiers. I have two feet, and they hardly ever have mechanical failures!)
mkloby
Master Sergeant
I must say I am not sure what that means! I will say that we have foot slogging infantry, as well as Light Armored Recon infantry - essentially a battalion equipped with LAV-25s. However - infantry will often deploy with Amphib Assault Vehicles, and would be fully mech. However, they would be used more as an APC not an Infantry Fighting Vehicle. The new Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle is being designed to act as more of an IFV.
Battalion motor pools have been built up as well due to the use of mounted recon in Iraq - so there are also ample 7 tons and armored humvees organic to that unit to provide transportation. Not to mention our air assault capabilities - CH-46s and CH-53, even could use hueys, plus we have our own C-130s. There are many ways that Marines can hitch a ride - although much of our training involves humping.
- Thread starter
- #446
Maybe in yesterdays military, not in today. The infantryman can not function with mobility today. Todays wars are being fought over vast areas. You can not walk a hundred miles and fight in the desert. You have to get there by either HUMVV, helicopter or APC. Todays infantry has gotten with the program...
mkloby
Master Sergeant
Hey Adler I think he meant that all in good fun, and didn't mean anything offensive (I hope) by the everything else is just support comment. I hear where you're coming from, I too catch a lot of **** too for training to be a pilot rather than ground combat arms. Our modern day combined arms doctrine would collapse whether you take out the ground elements - including infantry, or the air elements. Every MOS is essential to the way we wage warfare - take out one and the whole doctrine collapses.
- Thread starter
- #448
And that goes with what I said up there. A mobile force has the most advantage. Just hoofing it around with a ruck sack and your gun and radio will not win wars.
The USMC and the US Army have figured that out...
- Thread starter
- #449
I agree with you fully! 100%
All meant in good fun - no intention to do anything other than harmless tweaking. Of course I know that the whole thing fits together into one machine, and that if any part fails to perform, the machine as a whole breaks down.
There is some truth in what I said though, because the final end to any conventional war is to occupy the enemy's terrain and/or country, and the number one tool for that is the infantryman. But I admit (against my hard-fought habits) that he can't really do it alone, and that he is not the only one up the sharp end, by any means. No slur was intended to anyone who gets in harm's way.
A lot of the stuff I did was non-mech, in a different approach to a different kind of war; and I'm very glad that I'm not stuck in the middle of Iraq, as you say.
So don't take it too seriously, and when I get the chance, I'll stand you a beer!
BTW, in the British Army, the ones who get the HIGHEST scores are admitted to the Infantry. Just out of interest. Also, I'd just ask the all-mech types what they'd do in the Falklands? While people trained as leg-infantry will be capable of using vehicles, I'm not sure the opposite is necessarily true.
There is some truth in what I said though, because the final end to any conventional war is to occupy the enemy's terrain and/or country, and the number one tool for that is the infantryman. But I admit (against my hard-fought habits) that he can't really do it alone, and that he is not the only one up the sharp end, by any means. No slur was intended to anyone who gets in harm's way.
A lot of the stuff I did was non-mech, in a different approach to a different kind of war; and I'm very glad that I'm not stuck in the middle of Iraq, as you say.
So don't take it too seriously, and when I get the chance, I'll stand you a beer!
BTW, in the British Army, the ones who get the HIGHEST scores are admitted to the Infantry. Just out of interest. Also, I'd just ask the all-mech types what they'd do in the Falklands? While people trained as leg-infantry will be capable of using vehicles, I'm not sure the opposite is necessarily true.
mkloby
Master Sergeant
Hey ndicki, i'll throw something at you. All US Marines are trained as riflemen, and trained in infantry platoon level ops. They even use squadrons to do patrols, both foot and mounted, in Iraq. While the grunts spend their whole time training for ground engagements, other units can prove up to the task as well.
All Marine officers go through 6 months of ground training, including infantry off/def, SASO, urban, patrolling, engineering, etc. before they even go to their assigned MOS.
Just a thought - some of the most major problems that the Wehrmacht faced in WWII was it's lack of mechanized/motorized units - particularly acute in the early war years. This really bacame a problem in Barbarossa, as infantry slowed the advance of the fast moving panzer divs. Hitler refused to allow panzer armies to continue ahead of the infantry - he tethered them to the slow moving infantry.
Just something to think about - in a conventional war nonetheless.
All Marine officers go through 6 months of ground training, including infantry off/def, SASO, urban, patrolling, engineering, etc. before they even go to their assigned MOS.
Just a thought - some of the most major problems that the Wehrmacht faced in WWII was it's lack of mechanized/motorized units - particularly acute in the early war years. This really bacame a problem in Barbarossa, as infantry slowed the advance of the fast moving panzer divs. Hitler refused to allow panzer armies to continue ahead of the infantry - he tethered them to the slow moving infantry.
Just something to think about - in a conventional war nonetheless.
I think that in fact we're all making the same mistake - believing that 'our' style of war is the only one there is; in fact, they are all out there somewhere, just waiting for us to get caught up in them.
Those who were in the Iraq War see that as being "real war" - and it is. Meanwhile, those who were in the Falklands see something else; the Vietnam veterans, something different; the Rhodies yet another war, and so on. All of them are right. And to cap it all, unless you're bloody lucky, the one you get is the one you didn't train for - so you train for the hardest.
Just a word, though, to those who preach mech war - it didn't work so well in Vietnam, it wouldn't have worked in Rhodesia, and it didn't work in Somalia. It is not the only way to do it, and the way it needs to be done depends on a lot of factors that are out of our control.
That's one of the things I like about the USMC - the fact that you are first Riflemen, and only then, whatever else you are. That is something I believe we share, in that, for example, all British (and come to that, Commonwealth, as far as I've seen) Officer Cadets train as Infantry Officers, and go to 'To-Arms' training only after thex receive their commissions. Much the same thing goes for British O/Rs, too; basic training assumes you are an infantryman, rather than, say, a tankie or a lorry-driver.
BTW, this may amuse you...
Telegraph | News | US calls in Paras for Baghdad secret war
Just out of interest (tongue firmly in cheek!)
Those who were in the Iraq War see that as being "real war" - and it is. Meanwhile, those who were in the Falklands see something else; the Vietnam veterans, something different; the Rhodies yet another war, and so on. All of them are right. And to cap it all, unless you're bloody lucky, the one you get is the one you didn't train for - so you train for the hardest.
Just a word, though, to those who preach mech war - it didn't work so well in Vietnam, it wouldn't have worked in Rhodesia, and it didn't work in Somalia. It is not the only way to do it, and the way it needs to be done depends on a lot of factors that are out of our control.
That's one of the things I like about the USMC - the fact that you are first Riflemen, and only then, whatever else you are. That is something I believe we share, in that, for example, all British (and come to that, Commonwealth, as far as I've seen) Officer Cadets train as Infantry Officers, and go to 'To-Arms' training only after thex receive their commissions. Much the same thing goes for British O/Rs, too; basic training assumes you are an infantryman, rather than, say, a tankie or a lorry-driver.
BTW, this may amuse you...
Telegraph | News | US calls in Paras for Baghdad secret war
Just out of interest (tongue firmly in cheek!)
mkloby
Master Sergeant
Well I think of it like this. Mobility and speed are arguably the most important factors in a fighting force. In fact, USMC doctrine is based upon this. Sometimes that mobility may be acheived by APCs, sometimes trucks, sometimes C-130s, and sometimes helos. Mech had problems in Vietnam, but air assault became a cornerstone. Brings me to another point - adaptability. It's a great asset - a great tool to have these various capabilities. Obviously no one solution will work for all problems. Then there are times when you need lots of boots on the ground - which does not mean that leg inf does not coexist with all these other means. We do extensive cross training and combined arms exercises so whatever the threat is - there's a way to bring the hate and discontent.
BTW ndicki - your Royal Marines are awesome. We had them out in Quantico where we do our officer training - and one of those guys was walking around the barracks naked because he threw his cammies in the washer - I thought it was hilarious but a female officer who witnessed it did not.
BTW ndicki - your Royal Marines are awesome. We had them out in Quantico where we do our officer training - and one of those guys was walking around the barracks naked because he threw his cammies in the washer - I thought it was hilarious but a female officer who witnessed it did not.
Genuine story, for what it's worth: (we used to train on the facilities at CTC Lympstone from time to time, and came into close contact with RMs and RMRs) Also used to run recces on them on Woodbury Common, Dartmoor, etc - all areas where armoured vehicles would get you about ten yards before bogging in...
USMC Officer, eying the letters "RM" worn on a Royal's shoulder slide: "Say, what do those letters RM mean?"
Bootie: " Real Marines, Sir."
(Also to be taken as a joke!)
When I went through first the cadets, then Officer training, etc etc, the British Army was going through a difficult phase - the ancient, worn-out FV432 APCs we had in Germany basically didn't work, and were there just to keep the Tech/Mech people amused. We only used them when we wanted to start walking from a previously undetermined point...
Once we paid a farmer 5 Pounds to carry the platoon in the back of his farm trailer!
USMC Officer, eying the letters "RM" worn on a Royal's shoulder slide: "Say, what do those letters RM mean?"
Bootie: " Real Marines, Sir."
(Also to be taken as a joke!)
When I went through first the cadets, then Officer training, etc etc, the British Army was going through a difficult phase - the ancient, worn-out FV432 APCs we had in Germany basically didn't work, and were there just to keep the Tech/Mech people amused. We only used them when we wanted to start walking from a previously undetermined point...
Once we paid a farmer 5 Pounds to carry the platoon in the back of his farm trailer!
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I picked one guy up that was doing the EE excercise and drove him in the trunk of my car a few miles further away from his destination
- Thread starter
- #459
You missed the point of the whole discussion.
The infantry has to occupy the land to win it, but he can not occupy the land without his support and with out his aviation in todays military.
One piece of the puzzle falls apart and it is all lost.
