Serving in the military today must be a real challenge. Our country is so divided. During WWII we were unified in achieving a victory. Serving, with total support from home, was easy to accept. I marvel at the dedication of those who serve today.
Military Service
- Thread starter billrunnels
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
soulezoo
Senior Airman
I can only speak for the Air Force. It has changed so much in the last 30 years (I joined in '87).
Gone: religion as most are familiar with it. To the extent that being a chaplain is an awkward exercise. Most formal functions no longer have a prayer said and when they do, it is short and not profound.
Ability to effectively discipline. As a former First Sergeant, I watched the role discipline played in the AF slowly deteriorate to the point where it is common to hear junior enlisted talk back to superiors with impunity.
I'll relate two stories. Both I am personally familiar with but has made national news. The first involves a pious and deeply religious First Sergeant who was ordered by his new squadron commander, who was both a lesbian and an atheist (both pertinent to the story), to remove his copy of the Bible from his office declaring "I don't want any F-----g religion in my squadron". There's more to it than that, but the 1st Sergeant resisted the order and was courts-martialed. He could have easily complied, but was compelled not to on his religious and 1st Amendment beliefs.
The second occurred at my friends retirement. He requested another retiree who was part of the Travis AFB honor guard for years and very popular due to an impassioned speech he would give at the flag folding. He had performed this ceremony many times, often for retiring Generals and Colonels. Well this individual was unpopular with the squadron commander due to some beef they had years before. So when the guy showed up and got up to give his speech, the S. Commander had him forcibly removed (quite frankly it was an assault, there are You Tube videos available if anyone wanted to look for it). The reason given for this? The Commander determined his speech had references to God (like "One Nation Under God") which he felt was offensive and not allowable in this retirement ceremony.
There's much, much more. But it is not the same by a stretch. Glad I'm retired- I don't miss it at all.
Gone: religion as most are familiar with it. To the extent that being a chaplain is an awkward exercise. Most formal functions no longer have a prayer said and when they do, it is short and not profound.
Ability to effectively discipline. As a former First Sergeant, I watched the role discipline played in the AF slowly deteriorate to the point where it is common to hear junior enlisted talk back to superiors with impunity.
I'll relate two stories. Both I am personally familiar with but has made national news. The first involves a pious and deeply religious First Sergeant who was ordered by his new squadron commander, who was both a lesbian and an atheist (both pertinent to the story), to remove his copy of the Bible from his office declaring "I don't want any F-----g religion in my squadron". There's more to it than that, but the 1st Sergeant resisted the order and was courts-martialed. He could have easily complied, but was compelled not to on his religious and 1st Amendment beliefs.
The second occurred at my friends retirement. He requested another retiree who was part of the Travis AFB honor guard for years and very popular due to an impassioned speech he would give at the flag folding. He had performed this ceremony many times, often for retiring Generals and Colonels. Well this individual was unpopular with the squadron commander due to some beef they had years before. So when the guy showed up and got up to give his speech, the S. Commander had him forcibly removed (quite frankly it was an assault, there are You Tube videos available if anyone wanted to look for it). The reason given for this? The Commander determined his speech had references to God (like "One Nation Under God") which he felt was offensive and not allowable in this retirement ceremony.
There's much, much more. But it is not the same by a stretch. Glad I'm retired- I don't miss it at all.
- Thread starter
- #5
I sure would have a hard time functioning in that environment. I can understand your being happy about retirement. Thank you for serving.
at6
1st Sergeant
No small wonder why I mourn the death of the nation I grew up loving.
soulezoo
Senior Airman
Bill, I served because of men like you (and my father who was in WWII). Thank YOU!
at6
1st Sergeant
I too was raised and educated by Bill's generation. Soulezoo, thank you for you service as well as Bill's. I reported to the Induction Center in January of 1970 and ended up going from 1A to 4F in just a few short weeks. Back then it was God and Country. Now it's just country and I have told young people of faith not to enlist because of the people who have taken everything over. My step-sister is a Gold Star mom and I now wonder if Gary's sacrifice was really worth it. My father was career Air Force retiring in 1969. I doubt that he would like it there today.Bill, I served because of men like you (and my father who was in WWII). Thank YOU!
- Thread starter
- #9
What branch of service was your father in?Bill, I served because of men like you (and my father who was in WWII). Thank YOU!
- Thread starter
- #10
It is hard to take. Let's hope for a better tomorrow!
soulezoo
Senior Airman
USAAF... same time as you.
soulezoo
Senior Airman
Out of sheer irony, the story I related above made the headlines on foxnews.com, complete with the video.
For those of you that look for the story and see the video, I was sitting 3 feet from all that and knew all the folks you see in the video.
On edit, here is a link.
Air Force veteran sues after being pulled from ceremony mid-speech
For those of you that look for the story and see the video, I was sitting 3 feet from all that and knew all the folks you see in the video.
On edit, here is a link.
Air Force veteran sues after being pulled from ceremony mid-speech
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #13
That would have been hard to take. Religion was personal during WWII and it should be today. But the trend is even in our schools and every day life. How values have changed. I will continue to hold on to those I grew up with.
Last edited:
soulezoo
Senior Airman
And so you should! Those are values worth defending.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... I will continue to hold on to those I grew up with."
Hold and propagate, Billl. As all of us must do till last breath.
Hold and propagate, Billl. As all of us must do till last breath.
at6
1st Sergeant
Bill, Thank you and your generation, and God for giving me the values that I hold dear.
- Thread starter
- #17
Hang on to your values at all cost.
mikewint
Captain
In my second year at the UofI I certainly did not want to go to Vietnam. What's more knowing the mess their political system was in (Diem brothers) it was even harder to understand how we (USA) could support such a totalitarian government. Several friends had left for Canada rather than face the draft. I can't say that we (my family) were particularly religious or patriotic though 3 uncles had served in WWII (2 Marines 1 Navy) and 2 had been KIA. Dad was 4F due to injuries he received in High school.
I opposed the war unilaterally and had been in several anti-war protests. As a result my local Draft board revoked my 2-S deferral and the "Greetings" letter arrived. It was a turning point in my life and I often wonder today about the "Path not taken".
In the end I felt that I did owe my country something for all it had given me and right or wrong it was my duty to serve when called. I felt that I could be in the military but no one could make be kill another human being. With my college background (Pre-Med) I was easily accepted into Medic training and was going to be "One of the Good Guys" (I was young what can I say).
The realities of Vietnam hit me very hard and the character of the Montagnard people and the Nungs struck a deep chord in me. It was "Dances with Wolves" for me. The atrocities perpetrated by the NVA and VC on these people, which I witnessed first hand, changed me and my outlook forever and I began to feel really good about my service. Then I returned to the World.
My bitterness today is NOT about the war per se but about the WAY in which it was waged and our treatment by the country we served.
I was spit on and called filthy names, there were zero GI benefits, the Legion and VFW turned us away as "we hadn't been in a REAL war" and they didn't want any "crazy Vietnam druggies" in their organization, the girl I was engaged to wanted nothing to do with a "Baby-killer" and that even affected my own mother. I hid my military service for 40 years.
I opposed the war unilaterally and had been in several anti-war protests. As a result my local Draft board revoked my 2-S deferral and the "Greetings" letter arrived. It was a turning point in my life and I often wonder today about the "Path not taken".
In the end I felt that I did owe my country something for all it had given me and right or wrong it was my duty to serve when called. I felt that I could be in the military but no one could make be kill another human being. With my college background (Pre-Med) I was easily accepted into Medic training and was going to be "One of the Good Guys" (I was young what can I say).
The realities of Vietnam hit me very hard and the character of the Montagnard people and the Nungs struck a deep chord in me. It was "Dances with Wolves" for me. The atrocities perpetrated by the NVA and VC on these people, which I witnessed first hand, changed me and my outlook forever and I began to feel really good about my service. Then I returned to the World.
My bitterness today is NOT about the war per se but about the WAY in which it was waged and our treatment by the country we served.
I was spit on and called filthy names, there were zero GI benefits, the Legion and VFW turned us away as "we hadn't been in a REAL war" and they didn't want any "crazy Vietnam druggies" in their organization, the girl I was engaged to wanted nothing to do with a "Baby-killer" and that even affected my own mother. I hid my military service for 40 years.
soulezoo
Senior Airman
That's a shame Mike. My brother wore the same patches you display in your siggie. (He started out in 82nd, got the airborne tab, then 5th SF and air assault tab)
Did his two tours and lived amongst the Montagnards in the highlands. His experience was not that different than what you describe. Terrible.
mikewint
Captain
To your brother, Please convey: "Welcome home my brother"
