Military Service

[billrunnels]

Bill, Thank you and your generation, and God for giving me the values that I hold dear.

You are welcome. Pass them on to the next generation.

 

[billrunnels]

In my second year at the UofI I certainly did not want to go to Vietnam. What's more knowing the mess their political system was in (Diem brothers) it was even harder to understand how we (USA) could support such a totalitarian government. Several friends had left for Canada rather than face the draft. I can't say that we (my family) were particularly religious or patriotic though 3 uncles had served in WWII (2 Marines 1 Navy) and 2 had been KIA. Dad was 4F due to injuries he received in High school.
I opposed the war unilaterally and had been in several anti-war protests. As a result my local Draft board revoked my 2-S deferral and the "Greetings" letter arrived. It was a turning point in my life and I often wonder today about the "Path not taken".
In the end I felt that I did owe my country something for all it had given me and right or wrong it was my duty to serve when called. I felt that I could be in the military but no one could make be kill another human being. With my college background (Pre-Med) I was easily accepted into Medic training and was going to be "One of the Good Guys" (I was young what can I say).
The realities of Vietnam hit me very hard and the character of the Montagnard people and the Nungs struck a deep chord in me. It was "Dances with Wolves" for me. The atrocities perpetrated by the NVA and VC on these people, which I witnessed first hand, changed me and my outlook forever and I began to feel really good about my service. Then I returned to the World.
My bitterness today is NOT about the war per se but about the WAY in which it was waged and our treatment by the country we served.
I was spit on and called filthy names, there were zero GI benefits, the Legion and VFW turned us away as "we hadn't been in a REAL war" and they didn't want any "crazy Vietnam druggies" in their organization, the girl I was engaged to wanted nothing to do with a "Baby-killer" and that even affected my own mother. I hid my military service for 40 years.

Thanks for sharing your story. I confess I never did understand the Vietnam Conflict and why those who responded to the call did not receive benefits as we did. Your service was admirable and I extend my gratitude.

 

[tyrodtom]

I was discharged in 73, with a partial disability, I had no trouble getting my benefits, or job training with VA help after discharge.
Though later I was downgraded out of that partial disability.

Though I did try just hanging around the local VFW, the mostly WW2 vets didn't take to Vietnam vets very well. It was like it was my personal fault that the war turned out less than a win. So no VFW or American Legion for me.

I did lose some friends, and a girl friend, especially when I went into the Army after serving 4 years in the USAF, people didn't understand, or agree with my reasons for entering back into the thick of it. The girl wanted to get married now, and didn't want to waste her best years on someone likely to come back home in a box. Army Helicopter pilots or crew were well known to have high casualty rates.

As for getting spit on, never happened to me, or anyone I knew. If it had, i'd probably ( all 160 lbs of me ) beat em to a mush.

 

[billrunnels]

I was discharged in 73, with a partial disability, I had no trouble getting my benefits, or job training with VA help after discharge.
Though later I was downgraded out of that partial disability.

Though I did try just hanging around the local VFW, the mostly WW2 vets didn't take to Vietnam vets very well. It was like it was my personal fault that the war turned out less than a win. So no VFW or American Legion for me.

I did lose some friends, and a girl friend, especially when I went into the Army after serving 4 years in the USAF, people didn't understand, or agree with my reasons for entering back into the thick of it. The girl wanted to get married now, and didn't want to waste her best years on someone likely to come back home in a box. Army Helicopter pilots or crew were well known to have high casualty rates.

As for getting spit on, never happened to me, or anyone I knew. If it had, i'd probably ( all 160 lbs of me ) beat em to a mush.

 

[billrunnels]

I would be happy to help on the "mush" detail.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I was discharged in Florida in '74, and when dealing with the VA there and later in NYC, I got some of that "We WON our war, buzz off" treatment, but after I was fired from Eastern because of my service connected ailment, I wound up dealing with VA in Vermont, Maine, and upstate New York, and got nothing but respect and great service. I think if you stay away from large concentrations of retirees, you'll do a lot better. I hear Iraq and Afghanistan vets are having a hard time in other parts of the country. Doesn't seem to be the case here.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[billrunnels]

I was discharged in Florida in '74, and when dealing with the VA there and later in NYC, I got some of that "We WON our war, buzz off" treatment, but after I was fired from Eastern because of my service connected ailment, I wound up dealing with VA in Vermont, Maine, and upstate New York, and got nothing but respect and great service. I think if you stay away from large concentrations of retirees, you'll do a lot better. I hear Iraq and Afghanistan vets are having a hard time in other parts of the country. Doesn't seem to be the case here.
Cheers,
Wes

Glad things are going well for you! Thanks for serving.

 

[mikewint]

If it had, i'd probably ( all 160 lbs of me ) beat em to a mush.

There was a line of about 100 or so protesters forming a double line that we had to walk through to get through the terminal. Several of the ones doing the spitting were actually young girls. At 6'4" and 200lbs I probably could have taken them...you know another crazy druggie Vietnam vet. Cops at the terminal stood by and did or said nothing. People at the airport turned their backs and even pulled their kids away. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

 

[at6]

To those who served in Vietnam as far as I'm concerned, you didn't lose. Congress lost that one by getting in the way. Strange that Korean war vets weren't mistreated and accepted into the VFW since they didn't win that one either. My father served in the USAF during Korea and Vietnam but his head stone only lists Vietnam. My first step-father was a tail gunner on B-50s in Korea.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Seriously, America needs a parade, no matter what it costs, ... to refocus the public perception of the Military ... on the scale .... on the requirement that winning wars is the business of the military ... deciding when to fight and who is the business of the political establishment. War is a terrible option but maximum violence shock and awe is the only way to go if there is no option but to fight. THAT is the message that needs to be pounded into public consciousness in all democracies.
Both Chinese and Russian leadership understand how to use this to the advantage of the leadership ... democracies have the same need for consensus

 

[mikewint]

requirement that winning wars is the business of the military

An Iffy question. MacArthur wanted to use Nukes in Korea! Vietnam both militarily and politically is/was the textbook definition of Cluster Fork.
General Westmoreland had complete freedom of action in deciding how to prosecute the war within South Vietnam. He decided to conduct of a war of attrition, using search and destroy tactics, in which the measure of merit was body count. The premise being that if we could kill enough of the enemy, they would lose heart and cease their aggression against the South Vietnamese. These operations were designed to seek out enemy forces and engage them in decisive battle. Unfortunately this proved possible only with enemy cooperation, since they could break contact and limit casualties as they wished by withdrawing into sanctuaries across the border. In his single-minded pursuit of body count attrition, Westmoreland ignored two other crucial aspects of the war, improvement of South Vietnam's armed forces and pacification. The real war in South Vietnam was at the hamlet and village level, where the covert enemy infrastructure was working through coercion and terror totally dominating the rural populace.

On the political side, nobody in the chain of command was really competent to critique Westmoreland's performance. Lyndon Johnson had no understanding of military affairs whatever, nor did Robert McNamara. General Earle Wheeler was essentially a staff officer with virtually no troop leading experience, much less combat acumen. In defense of LBJ, he was receiving wildly conflicting advice from his senior aides and advisors, including those in uniform. General Wheeler was often just flat wrong in what he told the President. In July 1965, for example, LBJ worried that North Vietnam would respond by pouring in more men of its own. Wheelers advice: No need for concern, because the "weight of judgment" was that the enemy "can't match us on a buildup." That turned out to be one of the classic misjudgments of the war, comparable in magnitude and consequence to General MacArthur's assurances to President Truman that Chinese forces would not enter the Korean War.
Military historian Russell Weigley rendered a succinct judgment on LBJ: "No capable war President would have allowed an officer of such limited capacities as General William C. Westmoreland to head Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, for so long."

 

[soulezoo]

Nor an incompetent "whiz kid" like McNamara. LBJ and McNamara bear more of what went wrong than Westmoreland IMHO. Don't take that to mean I let him off the hook however.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The premise being that if we could kill enough of the enemy, they would lose heart and cease their aggression against the South Vietnamese.

"Your Majesty, if we send enough troops to the colonies, the rebels will give up and peace will reign."
"Mein Fuhrer, if we drop enough bombs on them, the English will have no choice but to give up."
"Mr. President, if we and our British allies bomb them day and night for a year, we'll deprive the Nazis of the will and the means to fight and save our troops from high casualties on the ground."
Mr. President, to heck with with this half-assed limited war! Nuke those North Koreans into the stone age!"
Do we as a species ever learn?
Cheers,
Wes

 

[billrunnels]

"Your Majesty, if we send enough troops to the colonies, the rebels will give up and peace will reign."
"Mein Fuhrer, if we drop enough bombs on them, the English will have no choice but to give up."
"Mr. President, if we and our British allies bomb them day and night for a year, we'll deprive the Nazis of the will and the means to fight and save our troops from high casualties on the ground."
Mr. President, to heck with with this half-assed limited war! Nuke those North Koreans into the stone age!"
Do we as a species ever learn?
Cheers,
Wes

Unfortunately not to date. As citizens we are pressured daily to make decisions on issues, when in my opinion, we should be concentrating on quality of leadership. There was a time, prior to social media, when that was the case. I was elected to the city council of a suburban Kansas City, Missouri city. The first few months in office I knocked on doors to get opinions on issues. I discovered there were as many for as against. I adopted the approach I was elected to use my judgement on behalf of all. From that time on I was free of pressure and could be more effective in my decisions. I received more support from those in my Ward. Even the Kansas City Star, not supportive of my political party, offered their support if I would run for mayor.

Lets concentrate on quality of leadership and turn them loose to administer on our behalf.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Lets concentrate on quality of leadership and turn them loose to administer on our behalf.

"Oh, but we can't have a bunch of tinpot Colonels and Brigadiers with no grasp of the big picture running around making critical decisions without any direction from the Pentagon, can we? Of course not!"
Cheers,
Wes

 

[billrunnels]

"Oh, buy we can't have a bunch of tinpot Colonels and Brigadiers with no grasp of the big picture running around making critical decisions without any direction from the Pentagon, can we? Of course not!"
Cheers,
Wes

I agree. But what if they were informed and in step with quality leadership from the Pentagon?

 

[soulezoo]

quality leadership from the Pentagon?

A paradoxical statement if there ever was one!

 

[michaelmaltby]

The only question to ask yourself about both Korea and Vietnam, IMHO, is this: "What would General Grant have done?"
Seriously, Grant was a genius at WAR ... understanding all the dimensions from terrain, to technology, to logistics ... and he served a democratic government. He never took on airs as MacArthur did. He controlled himself which Patton couldn't, and he was as politically enmeshed as Eisenhower ever was with Monty.
Suggest john mosier's great book "Grant".

 

[Zipper730]

General Westmoreland had complete freedom of action in deciding how to prosecute the war within South Vietnam. He decided to conduct of a war of attrition, using search and destroy tactics, in which the measure of merit was body count.

Wait, I thought there was restrictions on the use of jungle-warfare, and the body-count metric was McNamara's doing?

The premise being that if we could kill enough of the enemy, they would lose heart and cease their aggression against the South Vietnamese.

That didn't happen -- hell Operation Phoenix didn't even succeed in doing that (though it did wear them down enormously).

Westmoreland ignored two other crucial aspects of the war, improvement of South Vietnam's armed forces and pacification.

It's amazing nobody did that. We did have counter-insurgency knowledge available

The real war in South Vietnam was at the hamlet and village level, where the covert enemy infrastructure was working through coercion and terror totally dominating the rural populace.

The most effective situation would have been to remove the enemy infrastructure so they cannot carry this out. One way would be to better train the South Vietnamese, so they could either rub them out, turn people and use that to collect information; then use that to hunt down the key players and supporters.

Lyndon Johnson had no understanding of military affairs whatever

I never knew that

General Earle Wheeler was essentially a staff officer with virtually no troop leading experience

How did he get to where he was?

 

[tyrodtom]

Sometimes you amaze me Zipper, you don't seem to have a clue.
Jungle warfare was restricted??? Once you got out of the big towns, what wasn't under cultivation in Vietnam was jungle. From the delta to the mountains, jungle.
Which when it was triple canopy ( look it up) had a influence on how effective bombs and napalm could be.

I think discussing anything with you is such a waste of time, I think i'd best just put you on ignore.