Military Members post pics of you in your uniforms.

[ndicki]

Genuine story, for what it's worth: (we used to train on the facilities at CTC Lympstone from time to time, and came into close contact with RMs and RMRs) Also used to run recces on them on Woodbury Common, Dartmoor, etc - all areas where armoured vehicles would get you about ten yards before bogging in...

USMC Officer, eying the letters "RM" worn on a Royal's shoulder slide: "Say, what do those letters RM mean?"

Bootie: " Real Marines, Sir."

(Also to be taken as a joke!)

When I went through first the cadets, then Officer training, etc etc, the British Army was going through a difficult phase - the ancient, worn-out FV432 APCs we had in Germany basically didn't work, and were there just to keep the Tech/Mech people amused. We only used them when we wanted to start walking from a previously undetermined point...

Once we paid a farmer 5 Pounds to carry the platoon in the back of his farm trailer!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Once we paid a farmer 5 Pounds to carry the platoon in the back of his farm trailer!

But does that not mean that you were not walking?

We did that one time when were doing evasion training. A helicopter dropped us off out in the middle of the German country side and we had to get a predetermined point so that the Medivac could pick us up. We went into a farm field and hid in a farmers trailer because the OPFOR was close to getting us. The farmer found us and since I spoke German I showed him on the map where we had to get to and he took my crew to the destination where we called for extraction and they got us.

 

[pbfoot]

I picked one guy up that was doing the EE excercise and drove him in the trunk of my car a few miles further away from his destination

 

[ndicki]

Most useful piece of kit to smuggle on an EE effort was the visa card!!!

Incredible what a warm welcome you can get in pubs when you've got one of those...

Of course, I expect in Canada, they really CAN drop you miles from anywhere!

 

[k9kiwi]

You can fly over ground.

You can drive over ground.

Until a GRUNT "Stands on it and Stays" it isn't yours.

Simple as that.

And no offence meant to any trade, it is the single fact of war.

 

[ndicki]

At last, a fellow believer! I am no longer alone!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You can fly over ground.

You can drive over ground.

Until a GRUNT "Stands on it and Stays" it isn't yours.

Simple as that.

And no offence meant to any trade, it is the single fact of war.

You missed the point of the whole discussion.

The infantry has to occupy the land to win it, but he can not occupy the land without his support and with out his aviation in todays military.

One piece of the puzzle falls apart and it is all lost.

 

[ndicki]

He didn't miss the point at all - the infantry's presence on the ground is the decisive factor, although your point about the other arms, including Aviation, being necessary to enable this is equally valid.

I think we are chasing our tails again!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Probably...

 

[ndicki]

In fact, just to cheer you up, choppers are about the only form of battlefield transport and support (those words are not demeaning - anyone who gets in harm's way can be proud of the job he's doing, whatever it is) capable of operating successfully in some of the situations I evoked.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think I just see the situation from a more modern point of view, based off of my combat experiences.

Infantry are not all that is fighting this war right now and it goes down to the smallest of jobs supporting each other. Without each other no one could do there job.

Infantry needs to occupy the land but infantry can not win the war alone.

 

[mkloby]

You can fly over ground.

You can drive over ground.

Until a GRUNT "Stands on it and Stays" it isn't yours.

Simple as that.

And no offence meant to any trade, it is the single fact of war.

You can walk on ground too...
So if I follow your logic... if an armored bn attacks and drives infantry reg off a piece of ground - they don't control that area because they're not grunts? Can mech inf occupy land - or is it only leg grunts? Of course there's more than one way to occupy a piece of ground. Infantry might be better suited to controlling ground in mountains or jungles, but in wide open terrain mech, mot inf or armor may work better, especially with large distances.

If infantry stands and stays - he's irrelevant. He'll be outmaneuvered by a more mobile force and destroyed. W/o mobility - infantry will be destroyed.

I think we all agree on everything each other are saying, and we're just grumbling. Our USMC culture is all about supporting the infantry - but the importance and value of that support cannot be understated.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You can walk on ground too...
So if I follow your logic... if an armored bn attacks and drives infantry reg off a piece of ground - they don't control that area because they're not grunts? Can mech inf occupy land - or is it only leg grunts? Of course there's more than one way to occupy a piece of ground. Infantry might be better suited to controlling ground in mountains or jungles, but in wide open terrain mech, mot inf or armor may work better, especially with large distances.

Thankyou, atleast someone understood what I was saying.

If infantry stands and stays - he's irrelevant. He'll be outmaneuvered by a more mobile force and destroyed. W/o mobility - infantry will be destroyed.

Exactly

 

[ndicki]

To Mkloby, really:

All depends which war; in Iraq, you have lots of nice open space with bags and bags of nothing in it - ideal for mech war. Now go to some other places, and your MICVs will not survive ten minutes against well-equipped and trained leg infantry. You're quite right.

As you say, it's a mistake to think that this war (Iraq) is the only sort.

Also, remember what happened to the Israeli Armoured Forces in 1973, when the Egyptians deployed tank hunters with (for the period) sophisticated AT weapons...

We must not make the mistake of thinking that because Allied Forces steamrollered right over the (ill-equipped, demoralized, poorly-trained and badly-motivated) Iraqi Army, that ALL armies will roll over and die as easily.(I do not consider the present terrorist/resistance movement as the same thing as the old Iraqi Army, for obvious reasons.)

And you can not devastate all before you with prophylactic fire, so if you are facing seriously trained, equipped and motivated infantry, I'm afraid that they could very possibly make these armoured forces pay a very high price for the terrain. As you said, heavy woodland, swamps, hilly or mountainous areas, and so on, are not recommended for armoured warfare, while infantry can exploit them to death. And you can't always go round as easily as you might hope, since that still leaves active enemy forces behind you.

In my ancient days, in Germany, it was assumed we would be over-run on day one - our APCs were rubbish, and we'd be on our own. The idea was to hold as thoroughly as possible, and when over-run, to keep up pressure on the enemy's tail. Never got to test the idea thank goodness, but it sounds just the sort of sneaky stuff I "enjoy" (wrong word, but you know what I mean) !

But if you can imagine what it might be to have British troops ranging round your rear, making a nuisance of themselves, it isn't quite the same thing!

And yes, I'm grumbling, and when all is said and done, I think we agree on the basics - the rest is application and interpretation.

But what K9kiwi means, I think, is that you have to have people there to control it.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes you have to people there but they can be from all sorts of units and types of soldiers.

 

[mkloby]

Kinda back to the original topic of the thread... Hey ndicki and k9 - do you guys have any cool pics from when you guys were in? I believe k9 had the pics w/ german sheps... if I remember correctly? Got any others? This is for anyone out there!

 

[mkloby]

I posted this pic once i think a while back - anyway this is why love grunts. And this ain't even all the gear - someone's gotta carry the spare barrel bag and tripod for the damn M240G. I think I had close to 150lbs of gear. Six months of training as infantry does give a unique insight to ops as grunts. But I'll still take my aircraft!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here is a couple more that I dont think I have posted before.

 

[ndicki]

Goodness me, what ruffians!

Didn't have a camera, would you believe, back then, so pics are few and far between, but just to keep you happy, I had a root round in all my old junk; it'll do to be going on with. And don't ask the obvious question!

 

[ndicki]

Found another one !