Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[SaparotRob]

A fighter pilot training take years. Planes are in comperision very cheap. So 2:1 is very much a lethal blow. It is not about how fast you can replace planes or the kill ratio against plane against plane.

We need an insightful award.

 

[pbehn]

A fighter pilot training take years. Planes are in comperision very cheap. So 2:1 is very much a lethal blow. It is not about how fast you can replace planes or the kill ratio against plane against plane.

True, and resources taken to make something is only an important measure if the ability to make something is equal in both nations.

 

[swampyankee]

Lundstrom also examined Japanese and American records from the Guadalcanal campaign and determined that once you eliminated the overclaiming by both sides and looked just at the loss records, the A6M and F4F fought to a statistical dead heat in that campaign. (SInce the A6M was a lighter, cheaper aircraft attacking consistently 600 miles from its home base, that's actually a damn good record for the A6M.

In his Osprey book, P-47D Thunderbolt vs Ki-43-II Oscar, Michael John Claringbould attempted a similar analysis from the American and Japanese records during the New Guinea campaign, (I'm going from memory here too) and he determined that the P-47 shot down 2 Ki-43s on average. That's actually a good result for the Ki-43 in that that plane uses up less than half the resources of one P-47.

In addition to Snautzer01's comments, it should be noted that the US economy was much larger.

 

[Shortround6]

Analyzing fighter to fighter combat may (or may not) tell you which fighter was "better" or a better "buy" against that one type of fighter.

What else were the P-47s or Oscars shooting down (bombers/recon planes, etc) and/or what else were they doing? 4 P-47s strafing an air field (or freighter or ????) is going to put 4 times as many bullets per second into the target area as four Oscars. Where either one used as fighter bombers? Did either one accompany bombers and if so did one protect their bombers better than the other?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Lundstrom also examined Japanese and American records from the Guadalcanal campaign and determined that once you eliminated the overclaiming by both sides and looked just at the loss records, the A6M and F4F fought to a statistical dead heat in that campaign. (Since the A6M was a lighter, cheaper aircraft attacking consistently 600 miles from its home base, that's actually a damn good record for the A6M.

100%, BUT also consider the stress on the pilot, flying for hours then having to engage miles from home, and then having the trip back (providing there were no issues during combat). I can see how this limited the Zero's effectiveness in these situations.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Analyzing fighter to fighter combat may (or may not) tell you which fighter was "better" or a better "buy" against that one type of fighter.

Yes and no - on paper the Zero should had decimated the F4F, but then again look at some of the opponents the Fins faced with the Buffalo. As mentioned a gazillion times before, the Buffalos operated by the Finns were very different than those operated by VMF-221.

30% aircraft, 50% pilot skill, 20% tactics...

 

[Conslaw]

100%, BUT also consider the stress on the pilot, flying for hours then having to engage miles from home, and then having the trip back (providing there were no issues during combat). I can see how this limited the Zero's effectiveness in these situations.

Flyboy, I agree with you. I think the Japanese Navy, comfortable that the A6M-21 COULD fly 600 mile missions, maybe should have spent some time thinking whether they SHOULD fly those missions. I think it was late 1942 (November or December?), that they opened an airfield on Munda between Rabaul and Guadalcanal. By that time, the battle on the ground at Guadalcanal was lost even though the troops wouldn't evacuate until Feb. 1943. Japan should have been building forward airfields starting in August 1942.

 

[Conslaw]

A fighter pilot training take years. Planes are in comperision very cheap. So 2:1 is very much a lethal blow. It is not about how fast you can replace planes or the kill ratio against plane against plane.

Snautzer01, I agree with you; but what choice did Japan have? The IJA essentially had 3 single-engine fighter types in 1943, the Ki-43-II, the Ki-61 ("Tony"), and the Ki-44. The Ki-44 on paper seems to match up the best against the P-47, but I can't find anything that says the Ki-44 ever operated out of New Guinea. The Ki-61 and Ki-44 both had maintenance issues, and monthly production of either of these planes did not exceed 42/month through the middle of 1943. In contrast, P-47 production averaged 360/month over the course of its production run.

 

[SaparotRob]

Flyboy, I agree with you. I think the Japanese Navy, comfortable that the A6M-21 COULD fly 600 mile missions, maybe should have spent some time thinking whether they SHOULD fly those missions. I think it was late 1942 (November or December?), that they opened an airfield on Munda between Rabaul and Guadalcanal. By that time, the battle on the ground at Guadalcanal was lost even though the troops wouldn't evacuate until Feb. 1943. Japan should have been building forward airfields starting in August 1942.

The Japanese did start building a forward airfield around August 1942. It was at Guadalcanal but quickly changed ownership.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Japanese did start building a forward airfield around August 1942. It was at Guadalcanal but quickly changed ownership.

The distance from Rabaul to Guadalcanal is 661 miles. The IJN/IJA had plenty of other islands in the Solomon's to build airfields.
If they had focused on saturating the islands with airbase (and not just seaplane bases) they would have had both a better search/combat radius as well as overlapping defenses.

 

[Snautzer01]

Snautzer01, I agree with you; but what choice did Japan have?

Not attaking and pissing off the largest economy and well funded country would be a novel idea. Should have stuck with china dutch indies. Or any other nation that was already in conflict in the West.

 

[pbehn]

Yes and no - on paper the Zero should had decimated the F4F, but then again look at some of the opponents the Fins faced with the Buffalo. As mentioned a gazillion times before, the Buffalos operated by the Finns were very different than those operated by VMF-221.

30% aircraft, 50% pilot skill, 20% tactics...

There is also an X factor. If you conduct combat missions in single engined aircraft 600 miles away, not only do you need great navigation skills but a huge amount of luck that eventually you run out of. Joachim Marseille was shot down and bailed out in the Channel a month after his first combat and rescued after 3 hours in the water with exposure. That could easily have been his last mission across a stretch of water only 21 to 40 miles in that area.

 

[cherry blossom]

Yes and no - on paper the Zero should had decimated the F4F, but then again look at some of the opponents the Fins faced with the Buffalo. As mentioned a gazillion times before, the Buffalos operated by the Finns were very different than those operated by VMF-221.

30% aircraft, 50% pilot skill, 20% tactics...

Were the A6M2s having to fight with their drop tanks still attached?

 

[P-39 Expert]

A fighter pilot training take years. Planes are in comperision very cheap. So 2:1 is very much a lethal blow. It is not about how fast you can replace planes or the kill ratio against plane against plane.

I read that in WW2 the AAF took 9 months to train a fighter pilot and he graduated with 200 flying hours in the various trainers. The Navy pilots graduated with 600 flying hours, but I don't know how many months.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Should have stuck with china dutch indies. Or any other nation that was already in conflict in the West.

Well, Japan just did that.

They invaded french Indochina in two steps (1940 and 1941) and prompted the US embargoes that led to the decision to strike Pearl, The Philipines et all.

 

[SaparotRob]

The distance from Rabaul to Guadalcanal is 661 miles. The IJN/IJA had plenty of other islands in the Solomon's to build airfields.
If they had focused on saturating the islands with airbase (and not just seaplane bases) they would have had both a better search/combat radius as well as overlapping defenses.

They didn't because they couldn't. Interservice rivalry was only part of the problem. Saburo Sakai marveled at the huge American invasion fleet at Guadalcanal. The US hadn't even got its act together yet.

 

[Snautzer01]

Well, Japan just did that.

They invaded french Indochina in two steps (1940 and 1941) and prompted the US embargoes that led to the decision to strike Pearl, The Philipines et all.

I said should not have attacked the us. So they did not do what i advised.

 

[pbehn]

I read that in WW2 the AAF took 9 months to train a fighter pilot and he graduated with 200 flying hours in the various trainers. The Navy pilots graduated with 600 flying hours, but I don't know how many months.

That 200 hrs is advanced training. BoB pilots were being sent to squadrons with 50 hrs and that was no where near enough. The P-51B/Cs first "job" was as advanced trainer for the guys who would use it.

 

[P-39 Expert]

That 200 hrs is advanced training. BoB pilots were being sent to squadrons with 50 hrs and that was no where near enough. The P-51B/Cs first "job" was as advanced trainer for the guys who would use it.

I believe the 200 hours for AAF pilots included the last 40 hours in a combat plane, likely a P-39 or P-40. The rest of the hours were in basic and advanced trainers.

 

[Milosh]

Army Air Corps Flight Training in WWII

AAF (scharch.org)

Each cadet was given 60 hours of flight training in nine weeks before moving on the basic flight school.
During basic flight training, a cadet received approximately 70 hours in the air during a nine week period.
Those who went to single-engine school flew AT-6s for the first 70 hours during a nine week period, learning aerial gunnery and combat maneuvers and incresing their skills in navigation, formation, and instrument flying.