FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Now without going back though some threads, do you think the Dackelbauch -110s attributed to some of the bad press this aircraft as gotten over the years?
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?
- Thread starter Lucky13
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John Vasco
Senior Airman
I think that is possible, yes. The 110 got a bad press, yet the 109 losses were over 500 during the Battle, but the 109 has never got bad press. Decades ago, the myth surfaced that the Bf 1210 fighter units needed Bf 109 fighter escort.
By the way, when Peter and I got back to our hotel that night and discussed the days events, we both agreed that Kettling made damn sure he came down on land once he tangled with RAF fighters! We strongly suspected that there was no way he was going to go down into the North Sea! All the others of his Gruppe that were shot down went into the sea.
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John Vasco
Senior Airman
The Croydon raid by Erprobungsgruppe 210 I mentioned in another post. 111 Squadron was one of the two squadrons to intercept the unit, yet at the Public Record Office (PRO), now the National Archive, I could only find 5 combat reports of the 9 who were scrambled. It was only when I consulted the Squadron Operations Record Book (ORB) and the Intelligence Summary that I found out that only 5 of the 9 engaged. This was a very 'tight' combat over Croydon, with 111 piling in first, followed by 32, yet not all managed to get in a position to fire their guns, hence no combat report. No pilots of 111 were wounded or killed, so that had to be discounted. I'm not picking fault with those 4, just highlighting the kind of things one comes across when doing research.
Another thing, which I hope might interest you, was that on that mission, 32 Squadron was led by Flight Lieutenant Crossley as 'Red 1', while Squadron Leader Worrall flew as 'Red 2'! What the hell!!! Then, when I contacted Worrall and got a reply, all was revealed. See below.
Another small mystery solved!
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Chris Goss (Luftwaffe Fighters and Bombers - the Battle of Britain) describes the aircraft used by ZG 26 on 14 May as being fitted with wing tanks as well as the Dackelbauch. He includes an interview with Kettling, who states the same. I hadn't heard of that configuration before.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I've seen that mentioned many times over the years and always found it suspect. Why do I believe the name "Caidin" has something to do with it!
Great info!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
I don't see the wing tanks.
John Vasco
Senior Airman
The Dackelbauch had a large auxiliary fuel tank and a small auxiliary oil tank. When it was decided that the Dackelbauch was not such a good idea after all, it's use was discontinued, and the wing tanks were then used, on the 'D-3' sub-variant.
cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 516
- Apr 23, 2007
There may be a parallel between the damage to the reputation of the Bf 110 arising from it being handicapped by the Dackelbauch and the relatively poor performance of the A6M2 Zero operating from Rabaul over Guadalcanal against the F4F4 over August and September 1942. Richard Dunn states "It should be kept in mind that during the period under review Zeros flying from land bases over Guadalcanal almost always entered combat with their external fuel tanks attached. Zeros in combat over New Guinea generally flew without such tanks or dropped them before combat. Without the tank the Zero would have been somewhat faster than flying with the tank attached" Zero Model 21 Performance: Unraveling Conflicting Data.
John Vasco
Senior Airman
This is the Bf 110 Dackelbauch that Kettling was shot down in on 15th August 1940. It carried the fuselage code M8+CH, and the Werke Nummer 3155.
We can take a look at the reperecussions of respective losses of Bf 109 and that of the Bf 110 force. A lost Bf 110 is twice as hard to replace vs. a lost Bf 109. Or, if the double as expensive to make and use Bf 110 does not return the investment in racking at least 50% (if not 100%) better kill ratio than the Bf 109, it is rightly so that Bf 110 received the bad press for it's BoB role.
We also know that British will have a far easier time to replace a lost Hurricane or Spitfire, than it will be the case with Germans to replace a lost Bf 110.
I have no issues with him personally. I said the same thing to him that I would say to anyone. You can get your point across without an unwarranted attitude.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I'm not defending his attitude, I'm giving him stick for it.
John Vasco
Senior Airman
The bad press it received decades ago was due to myths being propounded by the writers of the day, viz, that it was a poor fighter, couldn't fight, and needed Bf 109 fighter escort in the Battle of Britain. As I posted previously, it performed no worse than the other 3 main fighters in the BoB.
The whole issue in combat is 'Advantage'. And it doesn't matter whether you are an experienced fighter pilot or not, if your opponent has the advantage over you for a few seconds, you are in trouble. Werner Mölders was shot down during the Western Campaign in the Spring of 1940. Why? Because his opponent had those vital few seconds advantage, and made it tell. When he returned to combat in July 1940, on his first mission he was hit and wounded but got back to France; Galland managed to get his damaged 109 back to France on one occasion in 1940; one of the top claimers in the Luftwaffe in 1940, Helmut Wick of JG2, was shot down into the Channel forever on 28th November 1940 because Dundas of 609 Squadron had those few seconds advantage over him. The matter of advantage was impressed on me time and time again by those I interviewed who had taken part...
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John Vasco
Senior Airman
You gave me stick for years on a certain guitar forum, Thump, and got it back in equal measure!
Admin: me & Thump have known each other for over a decade. We wind each other up, and laugh about it. That man plays a guitar like a man with no hands!
John Vasco
Senior Airman
14th May does seem a bit early. I know that Kettling's Gruppe (I./ZG 76) did try experimentally fitting wing tanks as well as having the Dackelbauch, but I believe the German Air Ministry jumped on that once they heard about it.
Must have a word with Chris (as fellow researchers, we have been in touch for decades, and still keep in touch now).
Here's a photo of a Dackelbauch with both:
Thumpalumpacus
Major
You gave me stick for years on a certain guitar forum, Thump, and got it back in equal measure!
Admin: me & Thump have known each other for over a decade. We wind each other up, and laugh about it. That man plays a guitar like a man with no hands!
Brotha can play some blues, even if he is a numpty at times!
John Vasco
Senior Airman
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Hahaha!
I play like a man with no hands also!
Anyone here wanting to hear some good blues, look up the Cruiser Blues band. He's the best lefty guitarist I've heard ...
... the last week or so.
John Vasco
Senior Airman
Here's another Dackelbauch that took part in the raid against the east coast of England on 15th August 1940
Messerschmitt Bf110D-0(3182). Returned damaged in attack by fighters off English east coast 1.00 p.m. FF Oberlt Gordon Gollob unhurt, BF Uffz Friedrich Meyer slightly wounded - admitted to hospital in Leeuwarden. Aircraft M8+PL 15% damaged but repairable.
One of the lucky ones.
Gollob survived the war. Don't know what ultimately happened to Meyer.
Messerschmitt Bf110D-0(3182). Returned damaged in attack by fighters off English east coast 1.00 p.m. FF Oberlt Gordon Gollob unhurt, BF Uffz Friedrich Meyer slightly wounded - admitted to hospital in Leeuwarden. Aircraft M8+PL 15% damaged but repairable.
One of the lucky ones.
Gollob survived the war. Don't know what ultimately happened to Meyer.
