Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[Shortround6]

A lot is written about the Spitfires "weakness" of short range/endurance. However the vast majority of single engine fighters used in WW II didn't have any real range/endurance advantage over the Spitfire. Or if they did they had one or two other major failings like little or no protection and/or much less fire power.
The Mustang, due to it's advanced aerodynamics, was in a class of it's own among planes built in large numbers. And it didn't become the "escort" fighter it is known for until the two stage Merlin was fitted. This was needed not only for the power to give performance at the high weight (compared to European fighters) but the extra weight of the engine and bigger prop compared to the Allison versions allowed the rear fuselage tank to be fitted and flown without degrading the flying characteristics to too great a degree.
It took about 103 weeks (2 years) from the first flight of the NA-73X and the first flight of a Merlin powered prototype so any idea that the Mustang was designed as an "escort" fighter is ludicrous. Yes, it carried more fuel than most other V-12 powered machines but 150 imp gallons of internal fuel was nowhere near enough. Using the wing tanks only the P-51 was rated at around 150-200 miles combat radius depending on altitude and exact mission profile. This is more than many other single fighters could manage but obviously nowhere near what was needed for escorting bombers into Germany.

 

[olaf von Bose]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

 

[Peter Gunn]

They only "seemed" to perform well because of numbers? Do tell. MeThinks you're in for a surprise or two.

 

[Shortround6]

By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

same could be said for the P-51, P-40, P-39, Hurricane, Typhoon, Any Italian V-12 powered fighter, any Russian V-12 powered fighter just about any 109 (with a few hundred exceptions out of 33,000) and the FW 190Ds.

If you include oil coolers then every single engine plane that flew could be brought down by a single bullet.

 

[billrunnels]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

I beg to differ with you regarding the B-17G. It was a very reliable, stable and rugged aircraft. It took us there and brought us back time after time. It had altitude, range and respectable armament.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

For being over rated these aircraft took took the fight to the axis and won decisively. Come up with something more than a hipshot opinion and you'll get my attention

 

[pbehn]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

American fighters in Europe only had to fight German fighters and 6 x 0.5 cal was sufficient, some (not by any means all) preferred the P 51B/C with only 4 guns. The P47 didn't have to be maneuverable to defend the bombers, but at high altitude its turbo engine gave it excellent performance.

Any plane with a pilot in it can be taken out with one bullet, water cooled planes may have more points that can be disabled with a single hit but all planes had them. The V1 doodlebug was notoriously hard to take down because it was so small with few places to make a telling hit.

 

[parsifal]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

really? at the front, over the reich the fighters escorting th US bomber streams were nearly always at a numbers disadvantage.....do some basic research please before making statements like that.

Spitfire was no more vulnerable than any of its other contemporaries, provided it was used intelligently. the same really as any of its adversaries, or running mates. Again the numbers show that.

Sorry but you are just firing into the air for effect at this point.

 

[pbehn]

Sorry but you are just firing into the air for effect at this point.

For being over rated these aircraft took took the fight to the axis and won decisively. Come up with something more than a hipshot opinion and you'll get my attention

From my understanding of German I suspect Olaf von Bose (Böse) has been here before.

 

[Peter Gunn]

From my understanding of German I suspect Olaf von Bose (Böse) has been here before.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[pbehn]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Böse has many meanings and uses in German, evil, bad, naughty, mischievous etc. Adler or Wurger will know better than me.

 

[parsifal]

I wouldn't rely too much on that. My persona is based on the Germanic version of of Sir Percival, of the round table fame, made famous in German culture by Wagner's music.

I'm not a Knight, not the bulwark against evil, not suitable to retrieve the holy grail. I do like Wagner. Its my personae. this guy could be an alter boy in the local church for all I know. All I know at this point is that he is walking around on this earth with some significant lack of understanding about this particular moment in history and spruiking that to the world. To some people, the history is important.

 

[pbehn]

I wouldn't rely too much on that. My persona is based on the Germanic version of of Sir Percival, of the round table fame, made famous in German culture by Wagner's music.

I'm not a Knight, not the bulwark against evil, not suitable to retrieve the holy grail. I do like Wagner. Its my personae. this guy could be an alter boy in the local church for all I know. All I know at this point is that he is walking around on this earth with some significant lack of understanding about this particular moment in history and spruiking that to the world. To some people, the history is important.

I love this forum, I just learned a new word, "spruiking".

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

Now I know you are just trolling...

 

[swampyankee]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

Oh? And your opinion is supported by what evidence?
As an aside, at high altitude, a P-47 would probably out climb and sustain a higher turn rate than any German fighter except, possibly, the jet- or rocket-powered ones.

As an aside, to the OP: why isn't the FW190 on the list?

 

[billrunnels]

To be honoust I find most American planes in Europe overrated. The Mustang only had 6 guns, no canons, P47 was too heavy as a fighter and lacked manouvreability, the B-17 was not fit for its task as a day precision bomber. The only reason they seemed to perform well was numbers compared to the German numbers. By the way the spitfire was also very vulnerable, 1 bullet in the cooler and it was over.

Allow me to make one other comment. Until you set in the nose of a B-17 at 25000 feet in the bomber stream and witness first hand the protection provided by the P-51 pilots I really don't think it is possible to assess the performance capability of either the B-17 or P-51. Having been there I can assure you the performance of both was outstanding.

 

[parsifal]

And there it is. you cannot beat "being there" type experience....

We could all go home at this point.

 

[billrunnels]

And there it is. you cannot beat "being there" type experience....

We could all go home at this point.

Don't rush off. I enjoy your company

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

Don't rush off. I enjoy your company

I, for one, have learned a great deal from your posts and replies, Bill. You were there in B-17's, and made it back to the USA--Until the P=51 Mustang flew fighter cover for your Squadron, did the USAAF have any long-range fighter protection for the B-17's, as the flight paths took you deeper into Eastern Europe- especially the vital Rumanian oil fields?? Somehow, and I don't mean to be excessively judgmental, I don't think Herr Bose has the experience that you have in the air--Hansie

 

[billrunnels]

I, for one, have learned a great deal from your posts and replies, Bill. You were there in B-17's, and made it back to the USA--Until the P=51 Mustang flew fighter cover for your Squadron, did the USAAF have any long-range fighter protection for the B-17's, as the flight paths took you deeper into Eastern Europe- especially the vital Rumanian oil fields?? Somehow, and I don't mean to be excessively judgmental, I don't think Herr Bose has the experience that you have in the air--Hansie

I was there in 1945 and our escort aircraft were based on the Continent, I think mostly in France, so they could go with us to all target areas.