Not in that order, also the helicopter variant was post war.Are you suggesting it didn't do all those things?
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....? (1 Viewer)
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parsifal
Colonel
My two bobs worth about the great p-51 debate. With all respect to bill, I think the poor schmucks forced to fly missions over Germany in lumbering B-17s saw the P-51s escorting them as the angels on their shoulders. Before the escorts being able to fly all the way to the targets and back the bombers were dangerously exposed, and losses were unsustainable. Just look at the Schweinfurt raids and that comes out in spades.
Its too easy to forget the bloodletting inflicted on 8AF before the escorts arrived. It was because of the very real salvation provided by these escorts that the real benefits they provided were transformed by the hyperbole from the stuff of reality to the stuff of legend. It gets important for those guys whose lives depended on it.....
Its too easy to forget the bloodletting inflicted on 8AF before the escorts arrived. It was because of the very real salvation provided by these escorts that the real benefits they provided were transformed by the hyperbole from the stuff of reality to the stuff of legend. It gets important for those guys whose lives depended on it.....
Builder 2010
Staff Sergeant
Aw come on... if it weren't for the Internet, I wouldn't be sitting here looking at this great forum and interacting with like-minded folks from half-way around the world. I've been spending the last hour and half reading the entire "Picture of the Day" thread. I'm on page 55, with only 455 more to go to be current. My modeling experience has been so much richer because of the forums on which I share and get shared with.
You are correct, the P-51s were the angels on out shoulders. I can't overstate the comfort factor they represented. One trip to Berlin without them was a long, long day.
Yeah and it first flown by Bon Jovi.
(Notice how I keep sneaking in pot shots to a really terrible movie...)
As I said Bill, I believe the P-51 is one of the greatest aircraft ever built. It was certainly one of the best of the war. It's contribution was paramount to allied victory.
By overrated, I am referring to the usual "expert" on the internet who forgets there were all sorts of other contributors to the allied victory as well. Obviously these kind of people are not really found on a forum like this one either.
In my opinion, both the P-51 and Spitfire were great aircraft for their time. Our Group Commander had access to a Spitfire. When he took off you set down and watched. He really put it through the ringer. Near the end of a mission the lead P-51 would come in real close and say, "Little brother to big brother give us a course home", He was close enough you could see the smile on his face. On receiving the requested information, he would waive, flap his wings a couple times and peal off. A wonderful exchange near the end of a long day.
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at6
1st Sergeant
I was unable to vote because each aircraft was very good at what it used for at the appropriate time.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,991
- Jun 25, 2013
All the fighters and bombers make people forget some of the most important planes: the trainers.
Combat aircraft are all overrated
Combat aircraft are all overrated
vinnye
Senior Airman
I have cast my vote for the Me262. I know that technologically it was a leap forward, but due to political infighting and ultimately the intervention of Hitler wanting it as his Blitz bomber, there were never enough in service at any time to make a difference.
It also had engine reliability issues which would be a major concern for any pilot - you would never be quite sure if you were going to have one or two or zero engines at any time!
IF the LW had these aircraft in quantity a couple of years earlier with some reliability - THEN it would have made a real difference!
I can see why some people have gone for the P51 - but I disagree. Once the Merlin engine was added, the P51 was the best long range escort! It made a huge difference once used correctly - ie being allowed to roam ahead of the bombers and engage the LW before they got to the bombers. The USAAF would probably have to have suspended daylight operations if not for the P51. Hence, in my opion it is not over rated!
It also had engine reliability issues which would be a major concern for any pilot - you would never be quite sure if you were going to have one or two or zero engines at any time!
IF the LW had these aircraft in quantity a couple of years earlier with some reliability - THEN it would have made a real difference!
I can see why some people have gone for the P51 - but I disagree. Once the Merlin engine was added, the P51 was the best long range escort! It made a huge difference once used correctly - ie being allowed to roam ahead of the bombers and engage the LW before they got to the bombers. The USAAF would probably have to have suspended daylight operations if not for the P51. Hence, in my opion it is not over rated!
I can't say much for the AT-11 in the turbelantAll the fighters and bombers make people forget some of the most important planes: the trainers.
Combat aircraft are all overrated
I had a discussion with an Me-262 pilot who said they only had 55 minutes of air time and could make two flights before changing engines.
I had offered my opinion on the other "over-rated" thread, but since this is the active topic I'll repeat it here:
Most over-rated? That would have to be an aircraft that is still held in high esteem but that completely failed to perform up to its reputation. For me that would be the P-61 Black Widow. The "Queen of the Midnight Skies" failed to meet its minimum performance goals from its first evaluations through the end of the war. The "flyoff" against the British Mosquito was rigged against the Mossie, and proved only that the P-61 was the best available aircraft for US forces - the Mosquito was not available. By late 1944 Wright Field was wondering what to do about the aircraft, pulling the plug on further "improvements" and looking for a replacement aircraft.
The P-61 did have some successes, due to the aggressive nature if its crews, but overall too many enemy aircraft were able to escape before the P-61 could get close enough to engage.
Cheers,
Dana
Most over-rated? That would have to be an aircraft that is still held in high esteem but that completely failed to perform up to its reputation. For me that would be the P-61 Black Widow. The "Queen of the Midnight Skies" failed to meet its minimum performance goals from its first evaluations through the end of the war. The "flyoff" against the British Mosquito was rigged against the Mossie, and proved only that the P-61 was the best available aircraft for US forces - the Mosquito was not available. By late 1944 Wright Field was wondering what to do about the aircraft, pulling the plug on further "improvements" and looking for a replacement aircraft.
The P-61 did have some successes, due to the aggressive nature if its crews, but overall too many enemy aircraft were able to escape before the P-61 could get close enough to engage.
Cheers,
Dana
drgondog
Major
I'm writing a new book "P-51B - The Bastard Stepchild that saved the 8th AF"
Some hyperbole, for sure and the 15th was part of the umbrella provided for POINTBLANK to achieve ultimate goal of complete air superiority over Normandy.
In the book, I will narrate many details currently not covered well in other books on Mustangs (or P-38/P-47) as it will trace the evolution in technology and design improvements necessary for US Long Rang Escort to go to Berlin and beyond.
While the mainstream topic is P-51B and what it took in evolution from model P-509 through NA-73, through P-51-1, A-36, P-51A and finally the conversion to RR as the A-36 contract was being executed - to present the P-51B-1 ready for duty - the book must also cover:
8th AF and Combined Bomber Objectives, the LW high command and leadership, the struggles as 8th and LW evolved through Blitz Week and Schweinfurt, the change in Org and creation of 15th AF positioned the Aurgument/Big Week campaign that initiated 'no place to catch your breath' for the LW.
The appendices has a 500+ entry Timetable from late 1939 through June 5, 1944 containing dates for communications and actions both political and technological to introduce pressurized combat tanks, external fuel tank capabilities, added internal fuel, performance enhancers like improved ailerons/boosted ailerons, water injection, paddle blades, etc.
It will include detail plots based on multiple, actual flight test reports for P-51B-1, P-51B-10, P-47C-2, P-47D-5/-15, P-38G/H/J-10, FW 190A5/A6 and A7, Bf 109G-2, G-6, G-6AS with snapshots for each May 31, 1943 & December 31, 1943 % May 31, 1944. The plots will include both MP/WEP/1.32/1,.42 ata for Speed and climb rates in comparison with each other. Necessary to get out of the 'best climb rate/speed' argument so often quoted to show that 'it depends' when talking about performance. Tables for SL, 5K, 15K, 20K, 25K and 30K will be shown to contrast Performance at each of those dates above. All of the data will be focused on Combat Loadout at take off for internal fuel and ammo, or as close as possible.
I am dabbling with the thought of reproducing an actual P-51 Performance Analysis Rpt but both of my potential publishers eye's glaze over.
I will be contacting some of you to see if you wish to contribute. Specifically, for a few more flight test reports as they may exist that aren't presented on Mike Williams or Kurfust websites for FW 190A-5/A-6 and Bf 109G-2 and 109G-6AS.
I am also looking for a classic Combat Radius chart showing P-47, P-38 and P-51B/D imposed over Europe as function of time. I don't have a quality image. Greg helped me with his pivot table presentation skills to present Victory credits as function of FG/sqdron by ac type for 8th and 9th. I'm nearly ready to have the data complete for MTO so that 15th AF is well represented in POINTBLANK.
PM me if you want to contribute?
Regards,
Bill
Some hyperbole, for sure and the 15th was part of the umbrella provided for POINTBLANK to achieve ultimate goal of complete air superiority over Normandy.
In the book, I will narrate many details currently not covered well in other books on Mustangs (or P-38/P-47) as it will trace the evolution in technology and design improvements necessary for US Long Rang Escort to go to Berlin and beyond.
While the mainstream topic is P-51B and what it took in evolution from model P-509 through NA-73, through P-51-1, A-36, P-51A and finally the conversion to RR as the A-36 contract was being executed - to present the P-51B-1 ready for duty - the book must also cover:
8th AF and Combined Bomber Objectives, the LW high command and leadership, the struggles as 8th and LW evolved through Blitz Week and Schweinfurt, the change in Org and creation of 15th AF positioned the Aurgument/Big Week campaign that initiated 'no place to catch your breath' for the LW.
The appendices has a 500+ entry Timetable from late 1939 through June 5, 1944 containing dates for communications and actions both political and technological to introduce pressurized combat tanks, external fuel tank capabilities, added internal fuel, performance enhancers like improved ailerons/boosted ailerons, water injection, paddle blades, etc.
It will include detail plots based on multiple, actual flight test reports for P-51B-1, P-51B-10, P-47C-2, P-47D-5/-15, P-38G/H/J-10, FW 190A5/A6 and A7, Bf 109G-2, G-6, G-6AS with snapshots for each May 31, 1943 & December 31, 1943 % May 31, 1944. The plots will include both MP/WEP/1.32/1,.42 ata for Speed and climb rates in comparison with each other. Necessary to get out of the 'best climb rate/speed' argument so often quoted to show that 'it depends' when talking about performance. Tables for SL, 5K, 15K, 20K, 25K and 30K will be shown to contrast Performance at each of those dates above. All of the data will be focused on Combat Loadout at take off for internal fuel and ammo, or as close as possible.
I am dabbling with the thought of reproducing an actual P-51 Performance Analysis Rpt but both of my potential publishers eye's glaze over.
I will be contacting some of you to see if you wish to contribute. Specifically, for a few more flight test reports as they may exist that aren't presented on Mike Williams or Kurfust websites for FW 190A-5/A-6 and Bf 109G-2 and 109G-6AS.
I am also looking for a classic Combat Radius chart showing P-47, P-38 and P-51B/D imposed over Europe as function of time. I don't have a quality image. Greg helped me with his pivot table presentation skills to present Victory credits as function of FG/sqdron by ac type for 8th and 9th. I'm nearly ready to have the data complete for MTO so that 15th AF is well represented in POINTBLANK.
PM me if you want to contribute?
Regards,
Bill
You make a good point about trainers. One highlight in my training was 10 hours in a J-3. Can't say the same about many hours in the AT-11 in the turbulent Texas skyAll the fighters and bombers make people forget some of the most important planes: the trainers.
Combat aircraft are all overrated
parsifal
Colonel
Cant wait DG. I hope it reaches print. Do you have some good pics to include?
drgondog
Major
Yes -
Barrett
Senior Airman
Me 163 by 2 1/2 laps. Sensational performance but produced almost no benefit--accredited shootdowns vary from 9 to 16 for all that enormous R&D and production cost.
soulezoo
Senior Airman
I don't know of anyone who thought the Me 163 was overrated. I don't think it even rates. At least not anything more than an eyebrow raising curiosity.
An expensive roman candle? Yes. Probably the only aircraft more prone to self-immolation than a B-24 overloaded with fuel.
An expensive roman candle? Yes. Probably the only aircraft more prone to self-immolation than a B-24 overloaded with fuel.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,991
- Jun 25, 2013
The Me163 was probably one of the German wunderwaffen more beneficial to the Allies than the nazis. Indeed, one wonders if its mere existence was the result of a subtle, very well-concealed, Allied plan.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
*SNIP*
You would think the P-51 was the only fighter, transport, bomber, recon, torpedo bombing, dive bomber helicopter to serve in WW2. It single handedly killed Hitler, and dropped the bomb on Hiroshima...
WHAT BLASPHEMY IS THIS?
Of course these things are true... what's your point?
