GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Then there were the Allied pilots who swore up and down that they encountered and/or shot down Heinkel He113s...
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?
- Thread starter Lucky13
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swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,983
- Jun 25, 2013
Well, being shot down by a Hurricane would be so embarrassing, let alone those planes built by those mongrelized Americans.
Phil the Greek as you call him was the nephew of my fathers commanding officer Louis Mountbatten, he wasn't "really a kraut" he was a member of the European royal families. He is actually the closest living relative to the Romanovs of the Russian Royal family and his DNA was used to verify the corpses of the executed Russian Royals were really what was claimed.
Kevin J
Banned
My family is from Europe too. Another bloody foreigner. My sarcastic wit, I hope, underlies the fact, that the British Empire was inclusive, whereas the Nazi's were exclusive, and so they failed.
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Hi Kevin,
While there is definite truth to this statement and I understand the logic behind it, I think that it's important to discuss the tactical situation and environment in which the fighting was taking place. All of the army fighters discussed were engineered to operate at higher altitudes (above 20K feet) so that's were they excelled. The Hellcat (and likewise the Corsair) were designed to operate at much lower altitudes, and as such were very competitive below 20K feet. Not to say that the naval aircraft could beat the army fighters in all performance parameters at lower altitudes, but they at least could come close at various altitudes and even match or exceed them under the right circumstances (each army and navy type having certain strengths and weaknesses). This is saying a lot because due to the added weight and drag of equipment necessary for carrier operations, naval aircraft are inherently at a disadvantage when compared to their land-based counterparts. So for them to be competitive in certain flight regimes is no small engineering feat in itself.
Shortround6
Major General
This is not quite right. The P-38 and P-47 were designed to operate at high altitudes but the execution of the early models, especially the P-38, left something to be desired.
The Mustang was definitely NOT designed as a high altitude fighter. It was turned into one in late summer and fall of 1942, and went into service as such at the end of 1943 but it had been designed in 1940 as a better P-40 using the same engine as a P-40 ( which was as good as the US could do for a high altitude engine in 1940/early 1941.
The Corsair came off the drawing board in 1939/40 with a high altitude engine. A two stage mechanical supercharged engine with intercoolers. It did take quite a while to get it into service. The Hellcat was nearly a year later in timing and was intended to use a Wright R-2600 engine (Wright was NEVER able to deliver a production high altitude R-2600)
and the Hellcat essentially used the same engine as the Corsair but with the carb flipped upside down. (a bit more complicated than that but the functional differences are minor)
events (such as better fuel) allowed the liquid cooled V-12s to use higher boost than the R-2800s (remember that the P-47M & N used an entirely new engine).
In 1940 the US had 100/100 fuel. It went to 100/125 at some point in 1941 but the Majority of US fighters in 1943 were using 100/130 fuel.
British had 100/115-120 in 1940 and skipped 100/125, going right to 100/130.
What or how planes were designed to work often changed by the time they got into service. The Navy/Pratt & Whitney two stage supercharged engines were the best high altitude engines being offered in 1940/41 with a good chance of actually working. See P-43 and F4F.
Good post.
However, Wright delivered nine two-stage R-2600-10s and two R-2600-16s in 1941 and 42. That is 3 years before anyone in Germany delivered a workable 2-stage supercharged military engine, a year before Allison managed it, and no worse timing vs. initial batch of 2-stage Merlins delivered.
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
What were the performance numbers on the two-stage R2600?
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
11 two stage R2600s isn't production though, it sounds more like hand built prototypes.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Is this a Darren sighting! Long time my friend, how are you holding up? I hope all is well.
Pete
We probably could say it that way. On the other hand, these engines were actual, 'flying' hardware. Too bad the 2-stage R-2800 was a better engine (so the Hellcat got it), though, while USAAC/AAF was not interested in it (so it was not installed in their A/C, say B-25s or B-26s, or some fighter).
Shortround6
Major General
Wright had also tried to turbocharge the R-2600 in the A-20 (maybe others?) but that worked so well (sarcasm) that only one aircraft out of 63 ordered was completed with the turbo installation. Most of the 63 were completed as P-70 night fighters and none of the succeeding P-70s (210 after the first batch) had the turbo replaced.
While the USAAC/AAF may have rightly (?) concluded that high altitude light/medium bombers were not needed (in their doctrine) one would think that a higher altitude engine in the P-70s would have been useful as they waited for the P-61 night fighter with two stage engines.
While the USAAC/AAF may have rightly (?) concluded that high altitude light/medium bombers were not needed (in their doctrine) one would think that a higher altitude engine in the P-70s would have been useful as they waited for the P-61 night fighter with two stage engines.
So what was the problem? Turbos of the time couldn't handle the mass flow of a 2000+ cube engine? I notice there didn't seem to be any turbo 2800s around that time either.
Cheers,
Wes
DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
Hi Pete great to hear from you too! I'm doing as well as can be expected, everyday is a challenge but I'm finding my way. I mostly worry about my children's welfare and how they're dealing with the huge loss. That's the one thing that keeps me going some days. I hope to continue coming back here in the days and weeks to come. Besides, I always enjoy reading your posts so I knew that I couldn't stay away too long.....
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DarrenW
Staff Sergeant
I guess it depends if you are talking originally or in it's later adaptations. My comment was in regards to it's most prolific role as an escort fighter, where it commonly operated at altitudes that were considered "high" for the day. But if we are allowed to compare the F4U and F6F to the P-51A with the Allison then it just makes the navy birds look all that much more competitive....
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Yeah, I could imagine the B-26 would have been far more formidable if it had a twin-stage supercharged R-2800 engine...
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Martin certainly had plans for two stage R-2800s. XB-27
Martin actually offered 15 different configurations for their proposal that culminated in the contract award for the B-26. The Army chose the single stage R-2800 version with short wings, because that was the configuration that promised the best performance with the engines available at the time. Other configurations had projected speeds in excess of 400 MPH, but required technology that was not yet available in 1939.
Martin actually offered 15 different configurations for their proposal that culminated in the contract award for the B-26. The Army chose the single stage R-2800 version with short wings, because that was the configuration that promised the best performance with the engines available at the time. Other configurations had projected speeds in excess of 400 MPH, but required technology that was not yet available in 1939.
Shortround6
Major General
The turbo R-2600 was plagued with overheating. A variety of scoops, vents and plain old holes (in large numbers) were tried in the cowling to get more cooling air into/out of the cowling.
The colder air at 20,000ft doesn't make up for the lack of mass for cooling a high power engine. The Turbo R-2600 was supposed to make 1700hp at 20,000ft according to one source.
a two speed R-2600 B engine was making about 1100hp to the prop at 20,000 ft with another few hundred going into the supercharger. Maybe there just wasn't enough cooling fin area on the engine itself?
David O'Reilly
Recruit
- 7
- Jul 22, 2018
163. More dangerous to pilot than prey
