My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

lesofprimus · Apr 12, 2009

Heres a copy of the email I ust sent Bill Dave... Hopefully, with Erich and Bills Blessings, we can iron this sucker out....

Interesting Bill.... Dont know if we'll ever find a loss listing WITH times, so we're gonna have to play it by ear.... Im not going to include Baer as one of ur Dads kills.... Amon flying Gelbe 23 is a go for kill #2 with the strafing by Johnson.... Im pretty sure we'll utilize 9. Staffels Oblt. Martin von Vacano flying Gelbe 7 for the third kill/probable as he was an unknown until Erich dug it up... Would like to get confirmation that he was NOT KIA as I am led to believe that he was WIA by Erich and Dave.... Perfect candidate....

The first kill is the one that Im still questioning.... Im thinking of using 11. Staffels Uffz. Hermann Pusch flying Schwarze 7, as the skin Dave made for this crate looks pretty damn good...... We have to make concrete decisions by atleast Wednesday to give Dave some time to finalize and detail the German "Stars"...

GrauGeist · Apr 12, 2009

last of 9. Staffel crates...

GrauGeist · Apr 12, 2009

Black 1 Black 7

GrauGeist · Apr 12, 2009

last of the 11. Staffel rides, Black 15 21

(* just noticed 21's bar is absent, the actual skin file has it...the layer was just switched off is all *)

lesofprimus · Apr 12, 2009

Lookin great Dave, whenever ur ready to send em my way, go for it....

Erich · Apr 12, 2009

excuse me gents for being absent but has been due to health issues.

the profile on the other page of yellow 5 is correct for the profiles or skins in some ways, we are dealing with different shades of grey though a light RLM 76 blue grey-more grey than blue base, no green tones just yet like in January 45 onward for the gruppe.

Sometimes I gruppe bars are applied in the case of the fallen pilots/aircraft yes but I have a pic of yellow 8 without any bar.

let me butt in for Bills sake, received your mail via but due to the forementioned issues am so stinking tired of these meds, give me at least a week-2 to read and translate and make comment on the mial. Bär was indeed hit/collided with a P-51B flown by Morgan and they both crashed.

Grey Ghost the skins look great but here is the glich. none of the numbers should be outlined at all, though the 11th st. black I gruppe bar would be outlined in white.

9th st yellow
10th st white
11th st black
12th st blue with white outline

Bär's Black <4+ I is probably correct in the way it is outlined in white due to be a stab machine

have had it guys .........

E ~

GrauGeist · Apr 12, 2009

Erich, thanks a million for your help...I'll make the adjustments!

I sure hope your feeling better soon!

drgondog · Apr 12, 2009

Erich said:
excuse me gents for being absent but has been due to health issues.

the profile on the other page of yellow 5 is correct for the profiles or skins in some ways, we are dealing with different shades of grey though a light RLM 76 blue grey-more grey than blue base, no green tones just yet like in January 45 onward for the gruppe.

Sometimes I gruppe bars are applied in the case of the fallen pilots/aircraft yes but I have a pic of yellow 8 without any bar.

let me butt in for Bills sake, received your mail via but due to the forementioned issues am so stinking tired of these meds, give me at least a week-2 to read and translate and make comment on the mial. Bär was indeed hit/collided with a P-51B flown by Morgan and they both crashed.

Grey Ghost the skins look great but here is the glich. none of the numbers should be outlined at all, though the 11th st. black I gruppe bar would be outlined in white.

9th st yellow
10th st white
11th st black
12th st blue with white outline

Bär's Black <4+ I is probably correct in the way it is outlined in white due to be a stab machine

have had it guys .........

E ~

Erich - be well - forget the trivial stuff.

You need to be well enough to see our wolfies - soon.

GrauGeist · Apr 13, 2009

lesofprimus said:
Lookin great Dave, whenever ur ready to send em my way, go for it....

Been tryin' brother, but your mail server is kickin' my mails back at me...

I'll try an alternate method...

lesofprimus · Apr 13, 2009

Thanks for the additional info Erich, thats a big bit of info that just takes this project one step further into the historically accurate department... Hopefully u'll be feeling better and get out of the sh!tass zone ur in man... Sorry ur down and out.....

Dave, no idea why my mail is kickin it back, but will see if theres anything goin on my end....

lesofprimus · Apr 13, 2009

Still need some confirmation Bill and Erich concerning the pilots that Bert is going to take out of the game....

I have in mind to use the following:
Gruppe leader: Baer << 4
First Kill: Pusch Black 7
Second Kill: Amon Yellow 23
Third Kill (Probable): von Vacano Yellow 7

Erich · Apr 13, 2009

Guys remember that Bär is flying < 14 NOT the Gruppenkommandeurs << double Chevron so please make note of that

thanks for the well wishes, I am keeping a low profile for the next 10 days

drgondog · Apr 13, 2009

lesofprimus said:
Still need some confirmation Bill and Erich concerning the pilots that Bert is going to take out of the game....

I have in mind to use the following:
Gruppe leader: Baer << 4
First Kill: Pusch Black 7
Second Kill: Amon Yellow 23
Third Kill (Probable): von Vacano Yellow 7

Baer not likely as the info I am getting now seem to reflect Morgan having a mid air collision with Baer while flying wing to Flt Leader Frost in a split S fight east of Marburg near the deck close to the Marburg airfield.

Frost was an exchange pilot from RAF, flying with 358FS and engaging about 10 minutes later (unreliable guestimate by Frost) than red flight 354.

Amon sounds right and I would guess Heck/Sommerhoff based on Marburg region (east of Giessen/sw Kassel) but I have a blank on the survivor's name of dads' 'damaged'. The key would be whether Von Vacano survivied the war to meet up in 1976.

lesofprimus · Apr 13, 2009

Excellent info guys, thanks for the clarifications, just what we've been needing.... Bill's loss listing does show Baer in a single chevron <4, are we sure it was a 14 instead of a 4 Erich???

9. staffel Ofx Georg Amon - Gelbe 23
9. staffel, Oblt. Martin von Vacano - Gelbe 7
9. staffel Uffz. Hermann Heck - Gelbe 9
Stab III. gruppe Oberfhr Peter Bär - Schwarze <4
Fliger Fritz Weinzierl - Schwarze 1
Uffz. Hermann Pusch - Schwarze 7
Lt. Dieter Harpel - Schwarze 15
Uffz. Hubert Sommerhoff - Schwarze 21

Erich's info from Priens book:

Stab III. gruppe Oberfhr Peter Bär (Maybe a cousin) shot down and KIA with enemy fighters crashed near Hattenhausen 100 % 109G-6 Black < 4 + I

9. staffel Uffz. Hermann Heck shot down with P-51's, crashed at Gross-Eichen, pilot bailed out. Yellow 9 + I Bf 109G-6; this was his 6th mission.

9. staffel, Oblt. Martin von Vacano -Staffelkapitän had engine failure forced landing at Paderborn in 109G-6 Yellow 7 + I

11. staffel, Fliger Fritz Weinzierl shot down with B-24's and P-51's in the area of Nürnberg Bf 109G-6, Black 1 + I

11. staffel, Uffz. Hermann Pusch, shot down in combat with P-51's and crasehd near Nürnberg, 100 %, Hermann was shot down in his parachure. Bf 109G-6, Black 7 + I

11 staffel, Uffz. Hubert Sommerhoff, hit and a/c damaged with P-51's forced landing at Mölln. Pilot wounded. Bf 109G-6, Black 21 + I

11 staffel, Lt. Dieter Harpel shot down and wounded with B-24's and P-51's, carshed near Nürnberg, Bf 109G-6, Black 15 + I

III. gruppe, pilot not known, shot down in air combat crashed near Lohra near Marburg, A/C 100 %, bf 109G-6 ?

until I do some digging will not know if these were U4's or G-6/AS or ........ ?

the Black Reich band was instituted in August of 44, so these crates wore them.

.....it mentions in a short blurb that Peter Bär collided with a P-51 flown by Captain Walter Morgan of the 358th fg ? and both crashed to their deaths between Bellnhausen and Hassenhausen.

the text is very brief too much so on this mission which I will copy here shortly ........... also of note the ace of spades emblem was removed in September of 44.

Erich · Apr 13, 2009

~ D like I said my head is pretty messed up right now. YES it is a Black 4 not a 14, pardon me.

lesofprimus · Apr 13, 2009

This info I quoted by Erich kinda makes things slightly more clear...

Searching for von Vacano, I can find no reference to him after the 9/11 clash, but it seems he did survive... His loss listing, engine failure forced landing at Paderborn in 109G-6 Yellow 7 + I, could work out for the 3rd kill.... So could Sommerhoff's tho, hit and a/c damaged with P-51's forced landing at Mölln. Pilot wounded. Bf 109G-6, Black 21 + I... Sommerhoff's loss seems more likely as he was wounded....

The first kill was seen to explode during the dive phase after the bounce, so the only one that really works there is gonna be Fliger Fritz Weinzierl, shot down with B-24's and P-51's in the area of Nürnberg Bf 109G-6, Black 1 + I... KIA

Second Kill we pretty much have wired tight with Ofw Georg Amon as the unknown pilot shot down in air combat, crashed near Lohra near Marburg, A/C 100 %, bf 109G-6...

So we have:
1st: Weinzierl in Black 1
2nd: Amon in Yellow 23
3rd: Sommerhoff in Black 21

Im not sure about the locations of the losses, but based on Erichs info, I dont see it working out any other way...

Comments???

lesofprimus · Apr 13, 2009

Excellent E, thanks for clearin that up man....

lesofprimus · Apr 17, 2009

Still waiting to hear from u guys.....

drgondog · Apr 17, 2009

lesofprimus said:
This info I quoted by Erich kinda makes things slightly more clear...

Searching for von Vacano, I can find no reference to him after the 9/11 clash, but it seems he did survive... His loss listing, engine failure forced landing at Paderborn in 109G-6 Yellow 7 + I, could work out for the 3rd kill.... So could Sommerhoff's tho, hit and a/c damaged with P-51's forced landing at Mölln. Pilot wounded. Bf 109G-6, Black 21 + I... Sommerhoff's loss seems more likely as he was wounded....

The first kill was seen to explode during the dive phase after the bounce, so the only one that really works there is gonna be Fliger Fritz Weinzierl, shot down with B-24's and P-51's in the area of Nürnberg Bf 109G-6, Black 1 + I... KIA

Second Kill we pretty much have wired tight with Ofw Georg Amon as the unknown pilot shot down in air combat, crashed near Lohra near Marburg, A/C 100 %, bf 109G-6...

So we have:
1st: Weinzierl in Black 1
2nd: Amon in Yellow 23
3rd: Sommerhoff in Black 21

Im not sure about the locations of the losses, but based on Erichs info, I dont see it working out any other way...

Comments???

Dan - I think you have narrowed it as closely as possible. I did find a reference to Baer's crash in reference to Morgan's ~ 1km away so it seems certain that the report of a mid air is more likely than flak getting them both and further away from the 354FS clashes.

I have a friend researching the JG300 losses and it is clear they probably lost five along that track also but I'm nearly 100% certain you have got it as well as possible after 65 years.

lesofprimus · Apr 17, 2009

OK Bill, thanks for the confirmation....

Now, if Dave would pop in and get the skins squared up, we got ourselves a party and I can start recording, and recording and recording... That first kill is gonna be a biatch.....

My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

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Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

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Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

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