My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

[drgondog]

Thanks Bill.... Still tweaking some of the game clips and getting the AI aircraft to cooperate for the camera angles I want.....

Pain in the ass....

The mirrors are not going to show externally Bill, I tried a couple different Mods for the game and no go.... I can get one rounded one when looking from the pilots seat, but thats the best the game will do....

I wondered about the 'limitations' in crafting a model. as they say, no biggie - especially with everything else you guys HAVE been able to do.

So far the only real anomalies I have seen were the muzzle blast locations on the wing and the spit twin mirrors.

I am impressed.

 

[lesofprimus]

The muzzle blast anomolies were on the B models right Bill???

 

[drgondog]

The muzzle blast anomolies were on the B models right Bill???

as I recall, yes. The two gun battery for the B and the three gun battery of the D all fit inboard of the bomb rack and outboard of the landing gear door. The B already had room for the inboard gun but chose not to install it.

 

[GrauGeist]

Simply excellent.

Dave what tools/software is required to make or modify skins, then load them into an existing game?

The only thing you'll need to "paint" a skin for IL-2 with, is a decent imaging program. I use Photoshop to create/edit a skin, and I use Paintshop to convert the finished skin to a 256 color .BMP file.

With IL-2's source code being under wraps for so long, I never learned what it took to create a model, or even edit an existing one. So I just stuck to skinnin' them

I've fooled with the aircraft models in Jane's WW2 Fighters, and I had a number of new aircraft in the works for CFS3 using gMax software. (My Ju87G is the only personal project I finished...lol)

As far as getting the skin into your game, you go into your IL-2 main folder and find the Paint Schemes folder. From there, you'll find the Skins folder...which contains all of your available aircraft skins. You simply take your finished skin and drop it into the appropiate folder and launch the game!

You'll find your new skin in the skin dropdown when you load a mission and select your aircraft.

 

[lesofprimus]

OK, I have gotten as far as I can with the video now.... I have it completed all the way up the very first apprearance of the 109's in formation getting ready to roll in on the B-24's....

I got the -24's flying formation, then a fly-by, then Berts Mustang closing in on the Group and finally looking out his canopy to the right at the Bomber stream...

And it only took 4 hours to get the 15 seconds of video.....

Its all up to u now Dave... Once I get those 109 skins, the fight is on.....

I have still been trying to get that first damn kill as described in Berts after action report and still, no explosion.... I was able to get one of the 109s wings to break off, but thats it.....

Frustrating......................

 

[GrauGeist]

Alright...here's Weinzierl's Black 1

Erich never got back to us on the question regarding the color of the I bar. For the 11. gruppe, I assumed it would be black. Will the 7. gruppe's I bar be yellow or black?

I'm ready to roll these dudes off the press, so any changes or adjustments can be easily made.

 

[lesofprimus]

It looks damn good Dave.... Not sure about the bars... I thought Erich said something about this.... Im gonna have to go through the thread and see......

 

[lesofprimus]

To get back and focused on the last bit of detailing project, heres the shots we are working with.... Included are the only 2 pilots face shots I have, for Baer and Sommerhoff....

 

[lesofprimus]

Some quotes...

What color was the vertical Gruppe Bar color Erich???
D ~ think 9th should be white and 11th staffel yellow numbers

Losses were:

StabIII. Ofhr. Bär, Peter werknum 442001 < 4 + l
9. Ofw. Amon, Georg
9. Uffz. Heck, Hermann Yellow 9 + l
11. Ltn. Harpel, Dieter wrknum 163401 White 15 + l
11. Uffz. Pusch, Hermann wrknum 440602 White 7 + l
11. Uffz. Sommerhoff, Hubert wn 166207 White 21 + l
11. Flg. Weinzierl, Fritz wn 166008 White 1 + l

Alright, we're getting closer.... Kites look great Dave.... Thanks for the info Erich.... How does the skin look for Yellow 7 I posted above??? Camo color looks close???? If we lose the spiral, are we close enough or do we need to tweak it up a notch??? Any individual markings possibly???

So we are gonna need 4 White crates and 4 Yellow crates from 9 and 11 Staffels... I can mix em up and spread em out in the JG53 formation of 12 aircraft and make it work....

Question Erich and Bill, any way of finding out what numbered crates were involved/lost/engaged??? For sure we need a White 1 and a Yellow 1 for the couple Staffelkaptain that were lost....

The 7 JG53 ships (pilot/staffel) that were 100% destroyed by 355th were:
Harpel 11.
Amon 9.
Bar Stab III.
Heck 9.
Pusch 11.
Sommerhoff 11.
Weinzierl 11.

Viktor, viktor, Ich verstehen Hauptmann ............ ~

yes correct D ~ 7th staffel is a second gruppe crate, but it does show at least in the pic the typical black band so we can say with some certainty it was worn.

the white spiral is a little unusual for 7th staffel and I do not want to suppose this style was carried over to III. gruppe.

9th staffel had white numbers, no outline
10th staffel ?
11th staffel had yellow numbers, no outline
12th staffel ?

yes second gruppe machine obviously but probably would fit the look of the III gruppe crates. interesting the losses quotes 11th staffel having black numerals, wonder if they were borrowed for 11st which should have yellow numerals. Stab. III. gruppe had black numerations and bars and <'s

 

[lesofprimus]

More....

JG 53 book is not here yet, prob next week. does confirm that LW crates had underwing 2cm weapons pods to their G-6's

JG 53's crates may have been a mix of underwing cannon jobs and those without to take on the US Mustangs

the III. gruppe received some 58 Bf 109 G-6's, NO AS versions, in June of 44 most with underwing 2cm cannons. Major Götz because of what happened to III. gruppe in the Med and US fighter opposition had ALL CANNONS UNDERWING REMOVED .............

the new 12th staffel was forming up in September 44's beginning but did not fly till later in the month, so the gruppe during the 11 September disaster had three staffeln flying.

cool the way it is is all being presented, Bill's pics you guys have attempted with beautiful graphics to get the Allied side and the LW side correct is truly remarkable, when you think about this scenario as one it really is an ideal research tool don't think anyone has really thought about seriously except for the history channel but they just have gone with the flow and really don't give a rip what a/c does what or the markings correct ......... so for the most part their accuracy of the event has to be discounted.

no pik-as emblem on the cowling, II. gruppe wore it though but they were not in the area of the engagement.

black bands but not sure what color the vertical bar was as yet.

yes black numerals quoted in the losses records from 11th staffel and yellow for 9th staffel.

guys there is 1 Bf 109G-6 no underwing arms. black band but no III gruppe bar. yellow 9 a tarp is over the front of the a/c even covering most of the spiral spinner. date is in August of 44.

what the heck were these stupid photographers thinking ???

 

[GrauGeist]

ok gents I feel like dog poop right now but am going to give this in installments, the book came and it is big, thick and heavy and pretty neat if you ask me. will give losses first :

Stab III. gruppe Oberfhr Peter Bär (Maybe a cousin) shot down and KIA with enemy fighters crashed near Hattenhausen 100 % 109G-6 Black < 4 + I

9. staffel Uffz. Hermann Heck shot down with P-51's, crashed at Gross-Eichen, pilot bailed out. Yellow 9 + I Bf 109G-6; this was his 6th mission.

9. staffel, Oblt. Martin von Vacano -Staffelkapitän had engine failure forced landing at Paderborn in 109G-6 Yellow 7 + I

11. staffel, Fliger Fritz Weinzierl shot down with B-24's and P-51's in the area of Nürnberg Bf 109G-6, Black 1 + I

11. staffel, Uffz. Hermann Pusch, shot down in combat with P-51's and crasehd near Nürnberg, 100 %, Hermann was shot down in his parachure. Bf 109G-6, Black 7 + I

11 staffel, Uffz. Hubert Sommerhoff, hit and a/c damaged with P-51's forced landing at Mölln. Pilot wounded. Bf 109G-6, Black 21 + I

11 staffel, Lt. Dieter Harpel shot down and wounded with B-24's and P-51's, carshed near Nürnberg, Bf 109G-6, Black 15 + I

III. gruppe, pilot not known, shot down in air combat crashed near Lohra near Marburg, A/C 100 %, bf 109G-6 ?

until I do some digging will not know if these were U4's or G-6/AS or ........ ?

the Black Reich band was instituted in August of 44, so these crates wore them.

.....it mentions in a short blurb that Peter Bär collided with a P-51 flown by Captain Walter Morgan of the 358th fg ? and both crashed to their deaths between Bellnhausen and Hassenhausen.

the text is very brief too much so on this mission which I will copy here shortly ........... also of note the ace of spades emblem was removed in September of 44.

...no pik-as emblem on the cowling, II. gruppe wore it though but they were not in the area of the engagement.

black bands but not sure what color the vertical bar was as yet.

yes black numerals quoted in the losses records from 11th staffel and yellow for 9th staffel.

well one thing that sucks is that photos of bf 109G-6's are in the trees and heavily camo'd I cannot see a band or bar or really any markings at all.

E ~

This is the info I was going from, as far as the numbering and assignments.

As for the coloring, I've seen some serious discrepancies. From what I've seen, it appears that some crates still had MTO markings as they were being transferred north. The upper camo went from an angular to a wavey during the summer of '44. The artwork of Yellow 5 (The photo of Yellow 5 is from I. Gruppe, 3. Staffel) really doesn't match the photo too well

Anyway, like I've said before, we can make as many changes as we need!

 

[Erich]

ok gave the responses that D has copied down what do we need to confirm now, am not finding much to give a 100 % accurate detail of these crates.....

have been out of the loop of sorts for over a month due to allergies and a weird virus. was told this will hang on for at least 6 weeks...........no energies plus fighting the cancer crap along with this, so you can imagine the weak feelings.

Again could be the case due to losses that a staffel was borrowning crates from another staffel to fill ranks, although the pilot member was from another staffel his staffel and the crate he flew - numbers and colors do not add up, but this remains part of that strange mystery of many Jg's during late 44 into 45. JG 301 was notorious for this and even the SturmFw gruppen when they got their rears chewed real bad had to make up numbers for the other staffels as pilots were rady and able but no machines in their own staffels...........hoping this makes sosme sense.

 

[phas3e]

RE: the 109 skin Given your time frame RLM 74/75 will be the colours

and as for wing camos heres a selection of the most common used on G-6s at the time.
I dont know the specifics of which factory or production batches used which style (if anyone does can you pass the info on to me)

but here what you would have seen flying

 

[GrauGeist]

Actually, the colors in 1944 were more complex than the 74 75 over 76.

You had combinations like 81 82 over 76, 82 83 over 76, 81 82 over the odd 84 and 82 83 over the same 84 base. The 84 appears almost greenish in tone and has been debated on it's true tone over the years.

They had splinter, wavey and mottled patterns in combinations of the above RLM colors...

Also, like Erich said, you had aircraft being shuttled from various fronts and being pressed into service. So there was a good chance that a MTO or Ost-front camo'd aircraft could be seen formed up with northern ETO crates.

 

[Erich]

Grey ghost, no actually the JG 53 gruppe received brand new G-6's months earlier so it would be in the Reich defense colours and not MTO

 

[lesofprimus]

Erich, sorry to hear ur down and out Brother... I'll be replying to ur email shortly.... Hang in there man.... How does this skin look to u??? Is it good to go, or does it need some changes???

OK Dave, u got alot of info to gather up and decide on the skins... If u really want to make this interesting, try some differing camo colors from the available schemes if u want..... As long as its accurate....

Im trusting ur judgement with Erich and Bill's approval for the validity and historical signifigance of the JG53 Bf 109G-6 Late skins....

Lets see some magic.....

 

[phas3e]

Actually, the colors in 1944 were more complex than the 74 75 over 76.

Those colours 83/82/81 were only just coming into use at the time your video will be set and then on only on brand new aircraft, mostly G14AS which most of were still RLM 74/75 in the basic style that was used during the battle of britain.
luftwaffe camouflage isnt has complex as people once thought, only during 1945 did the random stuff come out, and then its still catalogable, just look at Japos workes.

RLM 84 is generally agreed apon now as a fictitious colour code, the shade was a creamy yellow RLM76

 

[GrauGeist]

RLM Technical Department bulletin GL/C-E 10 Nr.10585/43 (IVE) Az.82b 10 of 21st August 1943 was indicating the replacement of 70 71 with 81 82.

1) All new aircraft types whose mission would have called for the use of colours 70 and 71, are from now on to be painted in colours 81 and 82.

2) For types currently in production, colours 70 and 71 are to be superceded by colours 81 and 82 as soon as possible. Available stocks of 70 and 71 are naturally to be used up. As it may be supposed that these colours will not be exhausted simultaneously, and in order to avoid re-orders of small quantities of 70 and 71, the use of residual stocks in the following combinations is authorized:

Colour 82 to be used with 70 (replacing 71)

Colour 81 to be used with 71 (replacing 70)

Should, however, stocks of one colour be so large as to unduly delay the implementation of the regulation camouflage, efforts must be made to trade away these stocks to sub-contractors, company plants or to other aircraft manufacturers.

3) The method of application (mottle scheme) of these colours is unchanged.

4) Aircraft plants will report implementation of the colour change, together with the modified Oberflächenschutzliste to GL/C-E 10 IV.

So if an aircraft manufacturer had an ample supply of the older colors, they would be delivering the older color schemes until thier stock ran out. On the otherhand, manufacturers that had the new colors supplied because of production demand and/or factory damage, would be delivering machines with the fresh colors.

An example would be the Ar234, which was delivered with, and wore the old color scheme (70 71) until the very end of the war.

As it stands, I'm using RLM 76 base with a RLM 74/75 overall. The mottling is combinations of RLM 02, RLM 74 and RLM 75 (as seen in the previous screenshot)...

 

[GrauGeist]

9. staffel, Oblt. Martin von Vacano - Gelbe 7
9. staffel Uffz. Hermann Heck - Gelbe 9
Stab III. gruppe Oberfhr Peter Bär - Schwarze 4

 

[GrauGeist]

11. Staffel

Fliger Fritz Weinzierl - Schwarze 1

Uffz. Hermann Pusch - Schwarze 7

Lt. Dieter Harpel - Schwarze 15

Uffz. Hubert Sommerhoff - Schwarze 21