... both in performance area (speed, cruising speed, rate of climb, combat range with and without drop tanks) and in 'lethality' area (on board electronics capability, armament)? I'm interested in service examples, not prototypes and one-offs.
Night fighters in 1943: what were the capabilities?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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wuzak
Captain
I suppose it depends on what part of 1943.
For instance, at the beginning of the 1943 you are possibly looking at Mosquito NF.IIs with AI Mk IV (metric) radar. Or maybe the NF.XII/XIII with centimetric AI Mk VIII radar.
Late in 1943 you may be looking at the NF.XVII and NF.XIX Mosquitoes with far better AI Mk IX or AI X (SCR720) radar sets.
For instance, at the beginning of the 1943 you are possibly looking at Mosquito NF.IIs with AI Mk IV (metric) radar. Or maybe the NF.XII/XIII with centimetric AI Mk VIII radar.
Late in 1943 you may be looking at the NF.XVII and NF.XIX Mosquitoes with far better AI Mk IX or AI X (SCR720) radar sets.
wuzak
Captain
Apparently NF.XVIIs were converted from NF.IIs from June to September 1943, fitting them with the AI Mk X radar.
wuzak
Captain
NF.XII conversion with AI Mk VIII radar first flew in August 1942.
NF.XIII production version with AI Mk VIII radar first flew in August 1943.
F.II derived versions did not have drop tank capability - so NF.II, NF.XII and some NF.XVIIs.
Later versions had basic wing of FB.VI and thus had drop tank capability.
NF.IIs had 4 x 0.303" and 4 x 20mm, but others only had the cannon.
NF.XVIIs also had rearward facing tail warning radar.
NF.XIII production version with AI Mk VIII radar first flew in August 1943.
F.II derived versions did not have drop tank capability - so NF.II, NF.XII and some NF.XVIIs.
Later versions had basic wing of FB.VI and thus had drop tank capability.
NF.IIs had 4 x 0.303" and 4 x 20mm, but others only had the cannon.
NF.XVIIs also had rearward facing tail warning radar.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
If we look at the most common night fighters during 1943 I believe it would be Beaufighter vs Me-110G.
wuzak
Captain
Are you sure about that?
Bristol Beaufighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So it would seem that by 1943 the Beaufighter was largely replaced by the Mosquito, in the UK at least, by 1943.
Squadron with Mosquito/Beafughter fighters 1943:
256 from May with Mosquito XII, until May with Beafughter VI
264 with Mo II, from august to october also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII
307 with Mo II, from august to october also Mo VI, until january also Bf VI
400 with Mo XVI from december
410 with Mo II, from july to september also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII, until january also Bf II
456 with Mo II, from june to october also Mo VI, until January also Bf VI
488 from august Mosquito XII, from october also Mo XIII, until Semptember Bf VI, until May also Bf II
605 from february to july Mo II, from july Mo VI
613 from october Mo VI
023 until august Mo II, from May Mo VI
025 with Mo II, in august-september also Mo VI, from december also Mo XVII
027 in april-june Mo II, from october Bf X, from december also Mo VI
157 with Mo II, from july also Mo VI
248 from december Mo VI, from June Bf X, until June Bf VI
418 from march Mo II, until july also Boston III
464 from august Mo VI, until november also Ventura
029 until may Bf I, from march to may Bf VI, from may Mo XII, in july-august also Mo VI, from october also Mo XIII
046 with Bf I&VI, from september to november also Bf XI
096 with Bf II until february, with Bf VI until november, from october also Mo XIII
125 with Bf VI
141 until june with Bf I, from may with Bf VI, from november also Mo II
153 with Bf VI, until january also Bf I
176 with Bf VI, until august also Bf I
239 with Bf I from october
255 with Bf VI
409 with Bf VI
603 from february to november Bf I, from february to october Bf VI, from august to october Bf XI, from october Bf X
085 until june Mo II, from march to august Mo XV, from March Mo XII, from october also Mo XIII, from november also Mo XVII
151 until july Mo II, from July Mo XII, in august also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII
i repeat this is all unit with fighters model of Mosquito and Beaufighter so also attack unit
edit: for 85th changed "in" with "from" i think so i right maybe a missprint in the source rafweb.org
256 from May with Mosquito XII, until May with Beafughter VI
264 with Mo II, from august to october also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII
307 with Mo II, from august to october also Mo VI, until january also Bf VI
400 with Mo XVI from december
410 with Mo II, from july to september also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII, until january also Bf II
456 with Mo II, from june to october also Mo VI, until January also Bf VI
488 from august Mosquito XII, from october also Mo XIII, until Semptember Bf VI, until May also Bf II
605 from february to july Mo II, from july Mo VI
613 from october Mo VI
023 until august Mo II, from May Mo VI
025 with Mo II, in august-september also Mo VI, from december also Mo XVII
027 in april-june Mo II, from october Bf X, from december also Mo VI
157 with Mo II, from july also Mo VI
248 from december Mo VI, from June Bf X, until June Bf VI
418 from march Mo II, until july also Boston III
464 from august Mo VI, until november also Ventura
029 until may Bf I, from march to may Bf VI, from may Mo XII, in july-august also Mo VI, from october also Mo XIII
046 with Bf I&VI, from september to november also Bf XI
096 with Bf II until february, with Bf VI until november, from october also Mo XIII
125 with Bf VI
141 until june with Bf I, from may with Bf VI, from november also Mo II
153 with Bf VI, until january also Bf I
176 with Bf VI, until august also Bf I
239 with Bf I from october
255 with Bf VI
409 with Bf VI
603 from february to november Bf I, from february to october Bf VI, from august to october Bf XI, from october Bf X
085 until june Mo II, from march to august Mo XV, from March Mo XII, from october also Mo XIII, from november also Mo XVII
151 until july Mo II, from July Mo XII, in august also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII
i repeat this is all unit with fighters model of Mosquito and Beaufighter so also attack unit
edit: for 85th changed "in" with "from" i think so i right maybe a missprint in the source rafweb.org
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- Thread starter
- #8
- Thread starter
- #10
Schräge Musik
The Germans first experimented with it in 1941. It was tested operationally in 1942 on Do 17s, but was not fully used operationally until 1943.
The development and idea however started back during WW1. The RAF used upward firing Machine Guns (as well as guns mounted at 45 degree angles) with the purpose of flying under Balloons and attacking them.
I believe the P-61 Black Widows dorsal turret could turn its .50 Cals upward to a 90 degree angle to conduct a similar attack as with the Schräge Musik.
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- Thread starter
- #14
The Geman slang for Jazz was 'Schraege musik', and I've read many times that it was a powerful addition to the LW NF's arsenal, since it enabled them to stalk the bombers from behind and slightly under. It took the British almost until the war's end to discover the threat.
The Allies were not that hard pressed by the hordes of night bombers, so the need never arose (in case someone thought about that at all). The main prey for the RAF's NFs were the LW's NF's, where the upward firing guns might not been such a beneficial thing. One wonders whether the Defiant (night fighter) gunners were 1st in ww2 to use something similar?
The Allies were not that hard pressed by the hordes of night bombers, so the need never arose (in case someone thought about that at all). The main prey for the RAF's NFs were the LW's NF's, where the upward firing guns might not been such a beneficial thing. One wonders whether the Defiant (night fighter) gunners were 1st in ww2 to use something similar?
DonL
Banned
It comes in service summer 1943.
The first larger combat with the music was 17.08.1943 at a nightattack of Peenemünde.
The third echelon (166 Bombers) of the Bombercommand was attacked from nightfighters with music and they could shot down 40 out of 166 Bombers.
The first larger combat with the music was 17.08.1943 at a nightattack of Peenemünde.
The third echelon (166 Bombers) of the Bombercommand was attacked from nightfighters with music and they could shot down 40 out of 166 Bombers.
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Thanks Adler.
What angle were the German cannon set at and what range would they fire at? I presume they were not directly below a bomber firing up into its bombay that may well have had a full load of HE bombs in it. Were there any German aces who just used this system?
What angle were the German cannon set at and what range would they fire at? I presume they were not directly below a bomber firing up into its bombay that may well have had a full load of HE bombs in it. Were there any German aces who just used this system?
- Thread starter
- #17
If I recall, the optimal angel was around 75 degrees.
I am not sure how many aces there were that used the Schräge Musik. Erich would probably have more information on this, as he has studied the Night Fighters extensively.
I believe however that Rudolf Schoenert was an ace with the weapon. (He was the highest scoring Night Fighter of the war with 65 kills). I am not sure how many of his kills were with the Schräge Musik. Wikipedia which is not that great of source claims that in 1943 he had 18 kills with the Schräge Musik. Not sure about after 1943 however.
Strenght 1/1/43 and 31/12/43 Nachtjagdverbaende (omissis Stab and minor units)
I/1 2 110C-6, 3 110E-1, 2 110E-2, 22 110F-4, 1 215B-5 / 2 110G-2, 20 110G-4, 4 88C-6, 3 219A-0, 1 190A
II/1 110D-0, 1 110D-2, 1 110E-1, 4 110E-2, 19 110F-4, 3 217J / 17 110G-4
III/1 1 110C-1, 4 110E-2, 20 110F-4 / 20 110G-4, 1 88A-4, 3 190A
IV/1 23 110F-4, 3 215B-5 / 1 215B, 26 110G-4
I/2 12 88C-6 / 21 88C-6
II/2 13 88C-6, 1 217J / 17 88C-6
III/2 0 / 21 88C-6, 2 88R-2
I/3 2 110C-4, 1 110C-7, 1 110D-2, 1 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 1 110E-2, 5 110F-4, 11 217J / 3 110G-2, 17 110G-4, 1 88C-6
II/3 2 110C-2, 2 110C-4, 3 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 2 110D-2, 2 110E-1, 2 110E-2, 4 110F-4, 12 217J/N / 20 88C-6, 1 217N
III/3 8 110E-1, 3 110E-2, 15 110F-4, 1 110D-3 / 1 110G-2, 27 110G-4, 3 88C-6
IV/3 1 88C-4, 8 88C-6, 14 217J / 22 88C-6, 1 88R-1, 1 190A-5
I/4 2 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 6 110E-2, 8 110F-4, 6 217J / 1 110D-3, 1 88C-6, 1 110F-4, 6 110G-4
II/4 1 110C-2, 3 110C-4, 4 110D-0, 2 110D-2, 3 110D-3, 4 110E-1, 3 110E-2, 7 110F-4 / 1 110E-2, 7 110F-4, 3 110G-4, 17 217N
III/4 2 110C-4, 1 110C-7, 2 110D-0, 1 110D-2, 2 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 5 110E-2, 10 110F-4 / 5 110D-3, 5 110G-4, 1 110F-4
IV/4 0 / 0 (get planes from january to july)
I/5 4 110C-4, 6 110D-3, 4 110E-1, 8 110F-2, 3 110F-4 / 17 110G-4
II/5 3 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 3 110D-3, 2 110E-1/2, 6 110F-4 / 23 110G-4
III/5 0 / 4 110F-4, 17 110G-4, 1 110G-2
IV/5 2 110C-2, 1 110C-7, 3 110D-0, 1 110D-3, 2 110E-1/2, 2 110F-4, 1 88C-2, 2 88C-4, 12 88C-6 / 2 110G-2, 24 110G-4
V/5 0 / 1 110C-2, 2 110C-4, 1 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 3 110E-3, 10 110F-4, 3 110G-4
I/6 0 / 1 110F-4, 29 110G-4
II/6 0 / 1 110D-0, 1 110D-3, 2 110E-1, 5 110F-4, 3 110G-2, 25 110G-4, 2 88C-6
IV/6 0 / 1 110C-1, 3 110C-3, 1 110E-1, 1 110F-2, 21 110F-4
V/6 0 / 0 (get planes only in june/july)
I/100 0 / 34 88C-6, 1 217J, 2 217N, 1 87D-5, 2 110F-4
II/100 0 / 19 88C-6
I/101 14 110C, 11 109E/F, 2 215B-4/5, 2 17 / 1 110G-4, 1 10E-1, 1 110G-2, (4 110, 23 88 school)
II/101 17 110, 14 217J / 30 217N, 1 110G-4
III/101 30 110 / 2 110C-2, 3 110C-4, 2 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 4 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 4 110E-2, 1 110E-3, 10 110F-4, 4 110G-4
IV/101 0 / 39 110C-G
I/1 2 110C-6, 3 110E-1, 2 110E-2, 22 110F-4, 1 215B-5 / 2 110G-2, 20 110G-4, 4 88C-6, 3 219A-0, 1 190A
II/1 110D-0, 1 110D-2, 1 110E-1, 4 110E-2, 19 110F-4, 3 217J / 17 110G-4
III/1 1 110C-1, 4 110E-2, 20 110F-4 / 20 110G-4, 1 88A-4, 3 190A
IV/1 23 110F-4, 3 215B-5 / 1 215B, 26 110G-4
I/2 12 88C-6 / 21 88C-6
II/2 13 88C-6, 1 217J / 17 88C-6
III/2 0 / 21 88C-6, 2 88R-2
I/3 2 110C-4, 1 110C-7, 1 110D-2, 1 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 1 110E-2, 5 110F-4, 11 217J / 3 110G-2, 17 110G-4, 1 88C-6
II/3 2 110C-2, 2 110C-4, 3 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 2 110D-2, 2 110E-1, 2 110E-2, 4 110F-4, 12 217J/N / 20 88C-6, 1 217N
III/3 8 110E-1, 3 110E-2, 15 110F-4, 1 110D-3 / 1 110G-2, 27 110G-4, 3 88C-6
IV/3 1 88C-4, 8 88C-6, 14 217J / 22 88C-6, 1 88R-1, 1 190A-5
I/4 2 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 6 110E-2, 8 110F-4, 6 217J / 1 110D-3, 1 88C-6, 1 110F-4, 6 110G-4
II/4 1 110C-2, 3 110C-4, 4 110D-0, 2 110D-2, 3 110D-3, 4 110E-1, 3 110E-2, 7 110F-4 / 1 110E-2, 7 110F-4, 3 110G-4, 17 217N
III/4 2 110C-4, 1 110C-7, 2 110D-0, 1 110D-2, 2 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 5 110E-2, 10 110F-4 / 5 110D-3, 5 110G-4, 1 110F-4
IV/4 0 / 0 (get planes from january to july)
I/5 4 110C-4, 6 110D-3, 4 110E-1, 8 110F-2, 3 110F-4 / 17 110G-4
II/5 3 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 3 110D-3, 2 110E-1/2, 6 110F-4 / 23 110G-4
III/5 0 / 4 110F-4, 17 110G-4, 1 110G-2
IV/5 2 110C-2, 1 110C-7, 3 110D-0, 1 110D-3, 2 110E-1/2, 2 110F-4, 1 88C-2, 2 88C-4, 12 88C-6 / 2 110G-2, 24 110G-4
V/5 0 / 1 110C-2, 2 110C-4, 1 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 3 110E-3, 10 110F-4, 3 110G-4
I/6 0 / 1 110F-4, 29 110G-4
II/6 0 / 1 110D-0, 1 110D-3, 2 110E-1, 5 110F-4, 3 110G-2, 25 110G-4, 2 88C-6
IV/6 0 / 1 110C-1, 3 110C-3, 1 110E-1, 1 110F-2, 21 110F-4
V/6 0 / 0 (get planes only in june/july)
I/100 0 / 34 88C-6, 1 217J, 2 217N, 1 87D-5, 2 110F-4
II/100 0 / 19 88C-6
I/101 14 110C, 11 109E/F, 2 215B-4/5, 2 17 / 1 110G-4, 1 10E-1, 1 110G-2, (4 110, 23 88 school)
II/101 17 110, 14 217J / 30 217N, 1 110G-4
III/101 30 110 / 2 110C-2, 3 110C-4, 2 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 4 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 4 110E-2, 1 110E-3, 10 110F-4, 4 110G-4
IV/101 0 / 39 110C-G
Few more questions about the Schräge Musik so please bear with me. Where full units equipped with it or was it just individual aircraft within a unit? Which aircraft had it fitted, i'm aware of the ME 110s but did the ME 210, 410 ju 88 and Uhu have it? Did the aircraft also keep their forward firing guns and if so what sort of preformance loss was their with the Schräge Musik? Did the LW only use 30mm Schräge Musik cannon and were they fiited at production level or was it a local modification that could use any suitable weapon?
