Night fighters in 1943: what were the capabilities?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    ... both in performance area (speed, cruising speed, rate of climb, combat range with and without drop tanks) and in 'lethality' area (on board electronics capability, armament)? I'm interested in service examples, not prototypes and one-offs.
     
  2. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    I suppose it depends on what part of 1943.

    For instance, at the beginning of the 1943 you are possibly looking at Mosquito NF.IIs with AI Mk IV (metric) radar. Or maybe the NF.XII/XIII with centimetric AI Mk VIII radar.

    Late in 1943 you may be looking at the NF.XVII and NF.XIX Mosquitoes with far better AI Mk IX or AI X (SCR720) radar sets.
     
  3. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    Apparently NF.XVIIs were converted from NF.IIs from June to September 1943, fitting them with the AI Mk X radar.
     
  4. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    NF.XII conversion with AI Mk VIII radar first flew in August 1942.
    NF.XIII production version with AI Mk VIII radar first flew in August 1943.


    F.II derived versions did not have drop tank capability - so NF.II, NF.XII and some NF.XVIIs.
    Later versions had basic wing of FB.VI and thus had drop tank capability.

    NF.IIs had 4 x 0.303" and 4 x 20mm, but others only had the cannon.

    NF.XVIIs also had rearward facing tail warning radar.
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    If we look at the most common night fighters during 1943 I believe it would be Beaufighter vs Me-110G.
     
  6. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,183
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    Are you sure about that?

    Bristol Beaufighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So it would seem that by 1943 the Beaufighter was largely replaced by the Mosquito, in the UK at least, by 1943.
     
  7. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,281
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    Lazio
    #7 Vincenzo, Oct 21, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
    Squadron with Mosquito/Beafughter fighters 1943:
    256 from May with Mosquito XII, until May with Beafughter VI
    264 with Mo II, from august to october also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII
    307 with Mo II, from august to october also Mo VI, until january also Bf VI
    400 with Mo XVI from december
    410 with Mo II, from july to september also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII, until january also Bf II
    456 with Mo II, from june to october also Mo VI, until January also Bf VI
    488 from august Mosquito XII, from october also Mo XIII, until Semptember Bf VI, until May also Bf II
    605 from february to july Mo II, from july Mo VI
    613 from october Mo VI
    023 until august Mo II, from May Mo VI
    025 with Mo II, in august-september also Mo VI, from december also Mo XVII
    027 in april-june Mo II, from october Bf X, from december also Mo VI
    157 with Mo II, from july also Mo VI
    248 from december Mo VI, from June Bf X, until June Bf VI
    418 from march Mo II, until july also Boston III
    464 from august Mo VI, until november also Ventura
    029 until may Bf I, from march to may Bf VI, from may Mo XII, in july-august also Mo VI, from october also Mo XIII
    046 with Bf I&VI, from september to november also Bf XI
    096 with Bf II until february, with Bf VI until november, from october also Mo XIII
    125 with Bf VI
    141 until june with Bf I, from may with Bf VI, from november also Mo II
    153 with Bf VI, until january also Bf I
    176 with Bf VI, until august also Bf I
    239 with Bf I from october
    255 with Bf VI
    409 with Bf VI
    603 from february to november Bf I, from february to october Bf VI, from august to october Bf XI, from october Bf X
    085 until june Mo II, from march to august Mo XV, from March Mo XII, from october also Mo XIII, from november also Mo XVII
    151 until july Mo II, from July Mo XII, in august also Mo VI, from december also Mo XIII

    i repeat this is all unit with fighters model of Mosquito and Beaufighter so also attack unit

    edit: for 85th changed "in" with "from" i think so i right maybe a missprint in the source rafweb.org
     
  8. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Thanks for the contribution :)

    What could LW throw in a night battle in 1943?
     
  9. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    3,734
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Helsinki
    Hello Tomo
    in mid-43 mainly Bf 110F-4s and G-4s, Ju 88C-6s and Do 217Js.

    Juha
     
  10. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I was able to find the max speed for the 110G-4 as 508 km/h at 5800m, Notleistung. Is that correct; the G-2 (heavy fighter, day) making 561 km/h at same altitude?
     
  11. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    3,734
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Helsinki
    Hello Tomo
    more or less without checking from my 110 literature, He 219A-2 with radar antennas and flamedampers was 45km/h slower than without.

    Juha
     
  12. beitou

    beitou Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    When did the schwa, dont know the German spelling but the jazz music upward firing cannon come into service? That must have been a significant leap in night fighter ability? Did the allies ever deploy a similiar system?
     
  13. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    41,768
    Likes Received:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A&P - Aircraft Technician
    Location:
    USA/Germany
    #13 DerAdlerIstGelandet, Oct 21, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
    Schräge Musik

    The Germans first experimented with it in 1941. It was tested operationally in 1942 on Do 17s, but was not fully used operationally until 1943.

    The development and idea however started back during WW1. The RAF used upward firing Machine Guns (as well as guns mounted at 45 degree angles) with the purpose of flying under Balloons and attacking them.

    I believe the P-61 Black Widows dorsal turret could turn its .50 Cals upward to a 90 degree angle to conduct a similar attack as with the Schräge Musik.
     
  14. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The Geman slang for Jazz was 'Schraege musik', and I've read many times that it was a powerful addition to the LW NF's arsenal, since it enabled them to stalk the bombers from behind and slightly under. It took the British almost until the war's end to discover the threat.
    The Allies were not that hard pressed by the hordes of night bombers, so the need never arose (in case someone thought about that at all). The main prey for the RAF's NFs were the LW's NF's, where the upward firing guns might not been such a beneficial thing. One wonders whether the Defiant (night fighter) gunners were 1st in ww2 to use something similar?
     
  15. DonL

    DonL Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2007
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Niedersachsen
    #15 DonL, Oct 21, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2012
    It comes in service summer 1943.

    The first larger combat with the music was 17.08.1943 at a nightattack of Peenemünde.

    The third echelon (166 Bombers) of the Bombercommand was attacked from nightfighters with music and they could shot down 40 out of 166 Bombers.
     
  16. beitou

    beitou Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Thanks Adler.
    What angle were the German cannon set at and what range would they fire at? I presume they were not directly below a bomber firing up into its bombay that may well have had a full load of HE bombs in it. Were there any German aces who just used this system?
     
  17. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    7,993
    Likes Received:
    438
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Hey, DonL, care to add a thing or two about the capabilities of the LW NFs of 1943 (performance, electronics, armament)?
     
  18. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    41,768
    Likes Received:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A&P - Aircraft Technician
    Location:
    USA/Germany
    If I recall, the optimal angel was around 75 degrees.

    I am not sure how many aces there were that used the Schräge Musik. Erich would probably have more information on this, as he has studied the Night Fighters extensively.

    I believe however that Rudolf Schoenert was an ace with the weapon. (He was the highest scoring Night Fighter of the war with 65 kills). I am not sure how many of his kills were with the Schräge Musik. Wikipedia which is not that great of source claims that in 1943 he had 18 kills with the Schräge Musik. Not sure about after 1943 however.
     
  19. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,281
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    Lazio
    Strenght 1/1/43 and 31/12/43 Nachtjagdverbaende (omissis Stab and minor units)
    I/1 2 110C-6, 3 110E-1, 2 110E-2, 22 110F-4, 1 215B-5 / 2 110G-2, 20 110G-4, 4 88C-6, 3 219A-0, 1 190A
    II/1 110D-0, 1 110D-2, 1 110E-1, 4 110E-2, 19 110F-4, 3 217J / 17 110G-4
    III/1 1 110C-1, 4 110E-2, 20 110F-4 / 20 110G-4, 1 88A-4, 3 190A
    IV/1 23 110F-4, 3 215B-5 / 1 215B, 26 110G-4
    I/2 12 88C-6 / 21 88C-6
    II/2 13 88C-6, 1 217J / 17 88C-6
    III/2 0 / 21 88C-6, 2 88R-2
    I/3 2 110C-4, 1 110C-7, 1 110D-2, 1 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 1 110E-2, 5 110F-4, 11 217J / 3 110G-2, 17 110G-4, 1 88C-6
    II/3 2 110C-2, 2 110C-4, 3 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 2 110D-2, 2 110E-1, 2 110E-2, 4 110F-4, 12 217J/N / 20 88C-6, 1 217N
    III/3 8 110E-1, 3 110E-2, 15 110F-4, 1 110D-3 / 1 110G-2, 27 110G-4, 3 88C-6
    IV/3 1 88C-4, 8 88C-6, 14 217J / 22 88C-6, 1 88R-1, 1 190A-5
    I/4 2 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 6 110E-2, 8 110F-4, 6 217J / 1 110D-3, 1 88C-6, 1 110F-4, 6 110G-4
    II/4 1 110C-2, 3 110C-4, 4 110D-0, 2 110D-2, 3 110D-3, 4 110E-1, 3 110E-2, 7 110F-4 / 1 110E-2, 7 110F-4, 3 110G-4, 17 217N
    III/4 2 110C-4, 1 110C-7, 2 110D-0, 1 110D-2, 2 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 5 110E-2, 10 110F-4 / 5 110D-3, 5 110G-4, 1 110F-4
    IV/4 0 / 0 (get planes from january to july)
    I/5 4 110C-4, 6 110D-3, 4 110E-1, 8 110F-2, 3 110F-4 / 17 110G-4
    II/5 3 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 3 110D-3, 2 110E-1/2, 6 110F-4 / 23 110G-4
    III/5 0 / 4 110F-4, 17 110G-4, 1 110G-2
    IV/5 2 110C-2, 1 110C-7, 3 110D-0, 1 110D-3, 2 110E-1/2, 2 110F-4, 1 88C-2, 2 88C-4, 12 88C-6 / 2 110G-2, 24 110G-4
    V/5 0 / 1 110C-2, 2 110C-4, 1 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 3 110E-3, 10 110F-4, 3 110G-4
    I/6 0 / 1 110F-4, 29 110G-4
    II/6 0 / 1 110D-0, 1 110D-3, 2 110E-1, 5 110F-4, 3 110G-2, 25 110G-4, 2 88C-6
    IV/6 0 / 1 110C-1, 3 110C-3, 1 110E-1, 1 110F-2, 21 110F-4
    V/6 0 / 0 (get planes only in june/july)
    I/100 0 / 34 88C-6, 1 217J, 2 217N, 1 87D-5, 2 110F-4
    II/100 0 / 19 88C-6
    I/101 14 110C, 11 109E/F, 2 215B-4/5, 2 17 / 1 110G-4, 1 10E-1, 1 110G-2, (4 110, 23 88 school)
    II/101 17 110, 14 217J / 30 217N, 1 110G-4
    III/101 30 110 / 2 110C-2, 3 110C-4, 2 110C-7, 1 110D-0, 4 110D-3, 1 110E-1, 4 110E-2, 1 110E-3, 10 110F-4, 4 110G-4
    IV/101 0 / 39 110C-G
     
  20. beitou

    beitou Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2012
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Few more questions about the Schräge Musik so please bear with me. Where full units equipped with it or was it just individual aircraft within a unit? Which aircraft had it fitted, i'm aware of the ME 110s but did the ME 210, 410 ju 88 and Uhu have it? Did the aircraft also keep their forward firing guns and if so what sort of preformance loss was their with the Schräge Musik? Did the LW only use 30mm Schräge Musik cannon and were they fiited at production level or was it a local modification that could use any suitable weapon?
     
Loading...

Share This Page