November 26 1944.........update

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Erich, Sep 8, 2010.

  1. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    friend and forum member Falkeeins just updated his blog. thank you Roman for the letter from Will to the both of us.

    FalkeEins - my Luftwaffe blog

    Siegfried Baer that is mentioned was my cousin flying in 5./JG 301.
     
  2. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    may he RIP

    E~ I will be talking about April 24 at the 306 BG meeting and the November 26 mission at our reunion in four weeks. the 306BG/355Fg are meeting same hotel same time - should be fun.
     
  3. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Bill

    ask away about 26 November 44 if you would am really interested in what the guys remember, anything is of tremendous value..........

    E ~ and the 2nd SF guys also attend the reunion as well right ?? Dang I wish I could attend ....
     
  4. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    E - bill lyons has an incredible memory. Ditto Chuck Hauver - I can put you in contact with both.
     
  5. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Bill I interviews Lyons a couple years ago wonderful gent.

    never chatted with Chuck that would be super !

    E ~
     
  6. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    That must be awesome! Bombers and Fighters at the same time. :salute:
     
  7. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    yes very cool N

    Bill ~ Chuck met JG 301 from an angle as they were setting up to pounce on the 491st bg. got onto Williams site to read the sketchy missions report. .......... 2 Fw's to his credit.

    am sure you have a pic of the chap as well as his Stang ?

    E ~
     
  8. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    of course
     

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  9. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    E - if you have Falkeeins email address you can send him my november 26 narrative from the new book..
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    very good Bill, thanks !

    I'll be in touch about your narrative, am heading north right now towards Roseburg long ride with 8 of us battling the coolness this morn.
     
  11. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    E- subsequent research results - The November 26 battle unfolded in the following way:

    1. the 364FG escorting 1st BD B-17s attacking Misburg.. the 1BD Forts bombed Misburg and Altenbecken but the Misburg strike is what we are interested in. The 361st was on a Free lance out in front of the Misburg task and engaged first with elements of JG2 and escorting JG 6 Me 109s in the Celle to Uelzen to Wittenburg area. The LW strike force was boring in to attack at Misburg and were a little in front and north of JG301 from the Stendal region airfields.

    The 364th caught somebody west of Steinhuder lake (a 109 and 190) on the inbound leg of the 1st BD attacking Misburg about 1130 but the big fight was with 361FG and JG2/JG6 inbound from east-northeast. These battles were ~ 1130-1150

    2. one flight of 339FG engaged south of Hannover. This was probably the leading element of 'relief' forces to help out the 355th over Misburg. They got four Fw 190s in 1210 timeframe here but their main battles were further west toward Dummar Lake at the B-24s were headed home.. All the Encounter times were 1245 - 1300+. These fights were probably with JG2 as well as JG301. All Fw 190s credited and JG2 made claims of B-24s along that track (though none were lost after the last of the 491st reached the Rally Point sw of Misburg.

    3. the 355th fought its only battle in which ALL three of its squadrons engaged as well as 2SF. It normally was very careful to keep escorts around bombers but this was a day in which there simply were too many to handle. The 357FS was out in front of the lead 389th just before the bombers turned and headed 215 degrees for Misburg and bomb run.

    At 1210-1220 the 357FS headed due east and hit the first gaggle of JG2/JG6 Fw 190s and Me 109s with a seven Mustang section and shot down 8. One section of 357 remained with lead bombers. About 10 minutes later as the trailing box, covered by 354FS, turned sw toward Misburg the second wave of JG2 and possibly some leading elements of JG301 came in from the east. The Blue/Green section now heading sw on West side of bomber track, passed over the top of the bombers and attacked. This fight also resulted in 8 destroyed for no losses.

    Shortly afterwards, another wave (believe III./JG301) came in with a 'bunch' just as the second box was bombing. The leading flight of the 354 was down to three ships led by Fortier and was initailly 'blocked' by a high squadron of Fw 190s but managed to destroy one more Fw 190 and damage 3 but every time a 51 got on an Fw 190 tail, three would be on his tail.

    the JG301 first blitz occurred now and hit the trailing squadron which now had no escort as 358FS was ahead with lead box and just now turning back to help with another section.

    The last squadron was completely destroyed (491st BG), and five more B-25s from the 445th were shot down and now the 2SF and 358 Red and Yellow section bored in to break up the last attack. This last 355th engagement took out another 8 Fw 190s. and the rest of the German fighters headed west.

    4. This is where the 339th now arrived and engaged JG301 and JG 2 on the home bound leg.
     
  12. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    yes it loos very feasible Bill, thank you, I think the 339th took on elements of the I./jG 301 flying high protection as well as some of the high squadron II./JG 301 Fw's the losses point to this in the hills more like a series of high ridges west of Misburg/SW of Hannover. Bert Stiles of the 339th fg was killed in this area after taking down an Fw of JG 301.

    timing is critical of course and as for the German times they are almost worthless as the account is still jargoned up as to when the III./JG 301 heavy Fw's came into attack the 491st bg and portions of the other two gruppen. alas trying to pin down the 56 claims by JG 301 has been mind boggling, of course Reschke's account down plays almost half as they were not given credit.

    E ~
     
  13. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    #13 drgondog, Oct 4, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
    All of the losses for the 491st except one were at Misburg/Hannover/Hildesheim. The exception was the last one which was a bail out over friendly lines in Belgium (still a loss). Ditto the five ships of the 445th. There was one 389 loss to flak but there were no 389 BG losses to fighters. There were no more combat losses to 2BD B-24s, but two B-24s were salvaged in December - unknown cause - due to this mission.

    Any claims by JG301 after that would have to be far away as the 2CW (389/445/491) were tail end charlie of the entire bomber stream coming home and trailing the 1st TF/1BD B-17s which had bombed Misburg in front of the 2CW.

    Sooo, the 1st and 3rd BD lost a total of four to German Fighters along the track to Bielefed and Osnabruck, four to flak in same track and had a total of four crash landings in England and Belgium. The entire bomber force loss total to German Fighters that might fit in the Luftwaffe credit sums would be about 25 direct (over German lines) and between 1 and 5 abandon ship/crash landings in Belgium which may or may not have been battle damage from fighters, plus 5 to flak.

    On the fighter front, including Stiles chasing a 190 into the ground as a credit to the Fw 190 he was chasing there were a total of 5 (1 Jug, 4 Mustangs) lost in air and two of those was to a 109.

    It would seem that the most JG301 could be credited if they got all of the 8th AF losses to fighters that day would be:

    1. 21 B-24's - all 445/491 over Misburg area
    2. 4 B-17s near German/Dutch border
    3. 2 P-51s near Hassel/Hannover, 1 P-51 lost near Achmer
    4. 1 P-47 near Rheine.

    then speculate on bail outs and crash landings for possible fighter caused damage that limped away from Germany... for another zero to five.

    I'll have to go back and look but the only Mustangs lost to Fw 190s that could be possibly assigned to JG2/JG6 and JG 301 numbers the two 339th FG losses at Hassel and Hannover..Falkeeins narration from Reschke has 40 bombers lost and 11 Mustangs which wouldn't be close on the total bombers lost due to Flak, fighters, Take off accidents, mechanical failure and salvage -

    The Mustang loss break out was
    2 to mid air collision (Non enemy action) west of Munster at 1350 - 355fg
    1 to oxygen mask failure (Dutch coast) ~ 1410 - 2SF
    2 to German fighters (Hassel/Hannover) ~ 1300 - 339FG
    1 to German Fighter (109) near Groenlo (Netherlands) ~ 1140 - 364FG
    1 to German fighter (unk 109/190) near Emlicheim ~ 1120 - 55FG
    1 to flak near Achmer ~ 1130 55FG
    1 to crash on take off at Raydon - 353FG

    The Groenlo score matches up w/JG 26 at 1100.

    The Thunderbolt total losses (2) were all 78FG and was one each to flak and fighter

    Of the nine Mustangs lost only 4 were in air to air combat and subject to match up with LW credits for the day against 8th AF.

    I have no idea how the 8th AF victory credits actually compared against the credits of 110-34-10 awarded against the LW fighter command that day as I have not seen the official losses.
     
  14. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    #14 drgondog, Oct 4, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
    Eric - I suspect Reschke's account of taking off at 1140 can be taken as correct. I also suspect the combination of Bomber reports and Fighter Encounter reports are reasonably close.

    1140 - III./JG301 TO from Stendal
    1210 - first clash, of lead two flights of 357FS, with combined Fw190/Me 109 force (JG1/JG6) in general Gifhorn area as leading 389th BG, heading due east, was about to turn to heading 215 degrees to the IP and start about a 7 minute bomb run.
    1230-1245 - first clash and running fight of 354FS with the second LW force comprised of all Fw 190 (presumably first wave of JG 301) on trailing 491st BG about 25 minutes behing leading 389th.
    1230-1245 - JG301 sweeps through 491st on bomb run (heading southwest) and is engaged by two flights of 354 then two flights of 2SF and then lead flight 358FS
    1230-1235 - 2SF engages w/JG 301
    1235-1250 - 358FS engages w/JG 301. Masters shoots down Fw 190 off 339th FG Mustang ~ 1250

    Summary - all 355th in Uelzen/Gifhorn to Hannover to S Hannover from 1210 to 1250 - then overlap with 339 at ~ 1250 south of Hannover. Total of 7 flights of 3-4 Mustangs of 355th FG which actually engaged.

    All 339th from 1255 to 1320 - soutwest of Hannover to Dummer Lake. Unknown number of flights but two flights of 505th engaged Fw 190s sw of Hannover, only one Fw 190 was shot down by 504 SE Dummer lake - and most of 503 engaged SE Dummer lake also. Based on the credits I would say that all four flights of the 503FS/339FG engaged... so I am guessing that the 339th engaged 7 to eight flights also.
     
  15. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    #15 Erich, Oct 4, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2010
    yes JG 301 claimed and it is confirmed the 16 24's from the 491st, and the 5 from the 445th alos they did claim but am unsure of the ID mistakes at least 5-6 B-17's I find this plausible as to the forward Fw's still running account way forward of the rest of the JG but then again maybe not. the 339th engages beyond the scope of the JG 301 Fw's after engaging and shooting them down runs as you say north to nw probably on JG 1 ? not sure of JG 2 and JG 6.

    think we can honestly agree now as this is quite concrete that the 2nd SF/355th was involved and then late the 339th to the South and SW towards W├╝nstorf.

    bill I have so many notes and nothing put together in a solidified masse ..........yet have been studying the December 44 missions of late - too many notes am shaking my head as I have also gone back post Munich April 44 to determine the night time activities of I./JG 301 with Bomber Command. as result a real trying headache for a unit that performed day/night duties without mix-ups as whom engaged whom feel overwhelmed sadly at times.

    E ~ and I need to check my plot map but do not think any JG 301 crates were near Dummer lake but way to the south and SW
     
  16. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    #16 drgondog, Oct 4, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2010
    Eric - I just looked up Tony's Claims list - and ignored the 'supplemental'

    JG1 claimed 15 B-24s, a Mustang and a B-17
    JG 6 claimed 1 B-17 and 1 Mustang
    JG3 claimed 2 Mustangs
    JG 301 claimed 66 B-24s, 2 B-17s around Hannover (they wer long gone when JG 301 arrived), and 9 Mustangs.

    The actual losses due to all causes is above, but easy to see that 81 B-24s is a long way from 25 combined B-24/B-17s actually lost or 13 Mustangs vs 4 actually lost
     
  17. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    as far as I am concerned JG 1 claimed 0 B-24's it was all JG 301 and that is incorporated from the 445th and 491st after action reports from the surviving bomber crews of the direction from whence the attacks were made and when they were hit. the 491st suffered the brunt of JG 301 but gave back in return as this was only the second Fw 190A flown mission by JG 301 pilots, the inexperiecne of JG 301 new kids really showed and 5 445th bg B-24's as well in the total

    say Bill am sure I have asked you do you have a operational route map for this date for the 2nd SF and the 355th fg.

    E ~
     
  18. seesul

    seesul Active Member

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    Thank you very much for this link Erich.
    I realy appreciate the article about difference between FW-190A-8 R2 and R8 subversions. I was in touch in this matter with Neil few months ago.
     
  19. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    E~ I don't have the actual post mission route map, but I know the route.

    The route was the infamous "trolley route".. namely R/V over Ijmuiden at 1120 for the 355th then a near due east track to General point of Celle at approximately 1210 for 389th BG in the lead, then 215 degrees back to Misburg to RP past the target, then due west over Dummer Lake whey they broke escort at 1310.

    The 2SF section arrived over the target at approximately 1100 to 1120 to scout the Misburg route and cloud coverage. They would have been as far out in front as to be with the 1st BD B-17s and then come back to orbit over Misburg at 1210-1230 to perform BDA. At the time of the JG301 attacks the 2SF would have been at the tail of the 389/445BG first box as they were bombing, and in front of the 445/491BG trailing box as they were inbound on theit bomb runs.
     
  20. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    E ~ I am beginning to suspect that JG6 was attached to the JG1 force as high cover.

    Ihlefeld was GruppenKommodore of JG1 and Stab was flying 109s (ihlefeld for sure) and could have been the 'high cover' for JG1. I./II./III./JG1 were flying 190s. As JG 1 and JG 6 primary bases were northeast of the JG301 Gruppe at Stendal, they were probably the force heading in from the east northeast, whereas the JG 310 force would have been heading due west from the east.

    It appears that a few 109s were in Stab/JG6 and that III./JG6 had 109s while I. and II. were all Fw 190s. I am beginning to suspect that the first wave that the 357FS hit was combined Stab./JG1 (w/109s) and I/JG1, while the second wave that 354FS hit was II and III./JG 1 or Stab./JG6 with II and III./JG6.

    Can you shed some light on that?
     
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