Ordinary German's Responsibility for the Holocaust?

[Soren]

Keep it up Soren. You think I am acting like a child now? Let's go...

Let's go ? Let's go where ? Starbucks ? I crave for coffee.

 

[Njaco]

Thanks BT. It was shortly after I read "Mein Kampf" that I decided to check out Neitzsche and only read a few parts of "Thus Spoke...." It was taxing after a while and its been 20+ years since I've read both books. Basically a lazy man's 'been there, done that'. Thanks for the insight.

 

[BombTaxi]

Thanks BT. It was shortly after I read "Mein Kampf" that I decided to check out Neitzsche and only read a few parts of "Thus Spoke...." It was taxing after a while and its been 20+ years since I've read both books. Basically a lazy man's 'been there, done that'. Thanks for the insight.

No problem 8) I read Geanealogy of Morality for the Philosophy half of my BA, and Nietszche is second only to Foucault in my list of geniuses who are almost impossible to read. I have read Thus Spoke..., but it was a while back, I might try and re-acquaint myself when I have some time off soon...

 

[Kiwikid]

One of the major psychological factors was the near starvation from blockade in WW1 and the humiliation of the German people by the Treaty of Versailes followed by hyperinflation and communist uprisings in 1923 made the German people hungry for a saviour to restore pride and hope...

By the time they realised he was a nutter it was too late.

 

[tango35]

As the starter of this therad said right its a sensitive subject and as a German i spoke with my family about this time often. The so called " little" man heard rumours , especially when he was living on the country side.
But it was forbidden by law to intervene or to support the Jews, Commies, gays, etc. otherwise the supporter were sent to prison or to the camps.
In that time every german could know it by reading Mein Kampf, and it right in the beginning the germans could see the jewstars on the clothing, but they had the Police, Gestapo and so after installing the System Hitler there were no chance to stop it from Germany it self.

Interesting are other points, a) why closed the rest of the world their border for jewish refugees ? and b) if the the allied airforces had the capabilities to bomb single cars or strafe single soldiers why they didnt bomb the railways to the Concentration Camps ?? or were there a plan not to do it ?

For my opinion here we had now over 65 years of reflection about why it happened.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As the starter of this therad said right its a sensitive subject and as a German i spoke with my family about this time often. The so called " little" man heard rumours , especially when he was living on the country side.
But it was forbidden by law to intervene or to support the Jews, Commies, gays, etc. otherwise the supporter were sent to prison or to the camps.
In that time every german could know it by reading Mein Kampf, and it right in the beginning the germans could see the jewstars on the clothing, but they had the Police, Gestapo and so after installing the System Hitler there were no chance to stop it from Germany it self.

Very good points. As I said before, I think a lot of people choose not to understand this. It is not a lack of understanding, but they choose not to understand.

 

[Njaco]

I think the Allies were not aware to the extent of what was happening although there were tells - from jewish immigrants to, I believe, even the Vatican. May have dismissed it as too far fetched.

 

[Marcel]

I think the Allies were not aware to the extent of what was happening although there were tells - from jewish immigrants to, I believe, even the Vatican. May have dismissed it as too far fetched.

I think they knew/suspected, or at least partly. I also think that many would have liked to interfere, but the priority wasn't high. I think their priority was first defeat Germany military. Helping the Jews was not a way to do that, so it wasn't done. One way or the other, the Jews only hope were those few people willing to stick their necks out and hide their Jewish coutrymen. I think the only thing you could accuse the German people of is that there weren't enough people brave enough. Hiding and helping Jews could be done as is shown by many stories, but it was extremely risky and you needed nerves of steel to do it.

 

[BombTaxi]

The refusal of other countires (including the UK) to accept the Jewish refugees is a shameful fact which has been buried (in a most convenient manner) by the enormity of the atrocity the Germans went on to perpetrate. It is also a symptom of times. Anti-Semitism was rife not only in Germany and Russia, but all over Europe. The UK's own history of anti-Semitism stretched back to at least the 13th century, and it had been particularly rife in the poorer parts of London during the closing decades of the 19th century - so much so that it fact played a moajor role in the Jack the Ripper case of the late 1800s.It was also a factor in the Dreyfus Affair of the 1890s in France. Anyone familar with the social history of the era should not be surprised at the reaction of other European countries to the westward flow of Jewish refugees.

As for deliberately targeting the camp infrastructure, my belief is that a combination of entrenched attitudes about Jews, ignorance/disbelief of the true scale of the Holocaust, and the pressing need to support the invasion of Occupied Europe combined to prevent a specific intervention being made. Perhaps with hindsight we can say more should have been done; but at the time the plight of the Jews must have seemd to be a relatively minor issue in the wider strategic context.

 

[Juha]

IMHO
France took rather many Jewish refugees from Germany before the WWII and even if there was fairly strong anti-Semitism in French society some 4/5 of French Jewry was saved by ordinary French people who hided them.
And UK have had a long serving Jewish Prime Minister in late part of 19th century, so even if there was anti-semitism it wasn't all powerful.

On bombing of rail-connections to KLs, now at lest the biggest killing KL, Auswitz-Birkenau was very far from UK or Southern Italy where Allied a/fs were and seemed to have had good rail-connections, so it would have been very difficult to cut those connections, especially when we know that effective cutting demanded constant bombing, otherwise connection, at least limited connection, was soon re-established by repair gangs.

Juha

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

Ferdinand, its been about 20 years or more but I remember that first impression it wasn't nothing special but as I recognized the history of the book I was kinda amazed. It seemed IIRC to me that he wanted to blame everybody and saw himself as the new Neitschze (spelling). It seemed logical but you had to read between the lines.

Ah, thanks Njaco. I just found Hitler's writing style very confusing to follow, which is probably why I gave up on it. In terms of writing, he certainly was no Churchill.

 

[RabidAlien]

I don't believe that bombing the rail lines to the concentration camps would have helped the Jewish prisoners any, anyway. The Nazi's viewed them as less than human....so it would not have mattered one bit to them if the prisoners had to hike 100 miles to the camps. If a few died along the way, so what? Leaving the rails open was a small mercy, if that, but as stated, there was a war going on and every bomb was earmarked for defeating Hitler. THAT was the best way to help the Jewish community.

 

[Njaco]

Ferdinand, for the other side of the coin, pick up Churchill's "The River War" - I slogged through that for a month and developed headaches!

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

Great, I have a lot to look forward to then, . Reminds of reading Manchester's The Last Lion: Visions of Glory. I swear to God, I feel asleep multiple times trying to read through it. Started reading it early November of last year, and finished it just last March.

 

[Njaco]

Well, being a Yankee like me, you will find Churchill's late 19th century slang - umm, entertaining. I think I sang "God Bless the Queen" for about a year.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

Since were in good company, I tend to sing "Over the Hillls and Far Away" from time to time, that old British army song. It's funny too, since I'm part Irish.

 

[Cromwell]

I think it is important to note that many people of many races and creeds went to their doom in concentration camps - it was not exclusive to the Jews, although they obviously suffered greatly as we should all know.

Also the camps were often run by Non-Germans in association with the German forces.


They actually started as work-camps and well one thing led to another. I think if all the Slave Labour in Germany had risen up it could have been a dramatic and swift end to the war in 43 or 44


NB - when they came from the East, the Russians kept them (the camps) running and actually kept many of the inmates *in* to their certain doom

The refusal of other countires (including the UK) to accept the Jewish refugees is a shameful fact which has been buried (in a most convenient manner) by the enormity of the atrocity the Germans went on to perpetrate. It is also a symptom of times. Anti-Semitism was rife not only in Germany and Russia, but all over Europe. The UK's own history of anti-Semitism stretched back to at least the 13th century, and it had been particularly rife in the poorer parts of London during the closing decades of the 19th century - so much so that it fact played a moajor role in the Jack the Ripper case of the late 1800s.It was also a factor in the Dreyfus Affair of the 1890s in France. Anyone familar with the social history of the era should not be surprised at the reaction of other European countries to the westward flow of Jewish refugees.

As for deliberately targeting the camp infrastructure, my belief is that a combination of entrenched attitudes about Jews, ignorance/disbelief of the true scale of the Holocaust, and the pressing need to support the invasion of Occupied Europe combined to prevent a specific intervention being made. Perhaps with hindsight we can say more should have been done; but at the time the plight of the Jews must have seemd to be a relatively minor issue in the wider strategic context.